Functional + Accessible + Beautiful = Michael Graves Design (Season 6, Episode 2)

Functional + Accessible + Beautiful = Michael Graves Design                  (Season 6, Episode 2)

(Music / Open)

Janet: In this series we will be discussing specific examples of design techniques that make a positive difference for people living with certain human conditions.

Carolyn: The more a designer understands the client and or the community the more effective and respectful the design will be.

(Music / Intro)

Janet: Welcome to Inclusive Designers Podcast, I am your host, Janet Roche…

Carolyn: and I am your moderator, Carolyn Robbins…

Janet: We have a terrific, absolutely wonderful episode for you today!

Carolyn: Yes we do! Usually, to us MGD would mean ‘Mighty Good Discussion’ but today it stands for ‘Michael Graves Design’

Janet:  Too funny, but yes, we are excited that Donald Strum of Michael Graves Design is joining us. Michael Graves is someone we as designers should always learn from. Carolyn, this may be a good time to tell us a little bit about background of both Michael Graves, his company, and of course, Donald Strum’s role in it too…

Carolyn:  Yes, happy to… let me tell you a little more about who Michael Graves was, and the company that continues his legacy…

First, the back story… Michael Graves is well-known throughout the world for design excellence. First in the 80’s as the architect who brought a more humanistic approach to architecture and urban planning. In the 90’s, his partnership with Target redefined America’s expectation that great design could and should be available to everyone.

Janet: Well we all remember their famous teapot, don’t we?

Carolyn:  Oh yeah. and we’re spilling the tea on the company here… (Janet chuckles}

Meanwhile, things changed a bit in the early 2000’s, when Michael Graves himself became paralyzed. He gained new insight as a patient and realized improvements were needed. He became a passionate advocate for the disabled, and decided the company could use the power of design to improve the healthcare experience.

Today, his company, now led by his partners, including Donald Strum, is dedicated to continuing and extending Michael Graves’ vision into the future. According to their website, Michael Graves Design is now known as the Most Accessible Design Brand, and Fast Company named them one of “The world’s top 10 most innovative companies.

Janet: Pretty impressive. And Donald will be taking us through how the company pivoted to focus on accessibility. And about their successful partnerships with Stryker Medical, CVS, and now, an exciting new furniture collaboration with Pottery Barn. They continue to create visually beautiful and physically accessible products that support the Activities of Daily Living, or as we like call them, ADLs.

I admit, I’m a huge fan of the company and all they are doing. Maybe it’s time to let one of my current heroes tell us more in his own words…

Carolyn: Totally agree. So now, here is our interview with Donald Strum of Michael Graves Design …

(Music 2 – Interview)

Janet: Hello and welcome to Inclusive Designers Podcast. And today we have a very special guest. I am very excited. I have decided that he is my new hero in the world of inclusivity and design. So please welcome Donald Strum. (Donald: hello).

Hi, thank you so much for coming today and being a part of this podcast. Again, it is true that I do think of you as sort of my new hero within the inclusivity world, and design world, and what that all means. 

So why don’t you take us on that journey? How did you get involved, and also the Michael Graves story? Whatever part you want to start with is fine by me.

Donald: Oh, I can do that. (Janet: ok). And, yeah, being a hero, wow, that’s, that’s something. I’m, I’m actually interested in your general hero list. Who else is on your list?

Janet: Judy Heumann. (Donald: oh), and then there’s Valerie Fletcher, who’s in Human Centered Design executive over there in Boston. She’s another hero of mine within this world. And then there’s Meredith Banasiak. Oh, I could go on for a little while. So, I might not.

But definitely, you know, after talking to you and then finding out more about what you do. I can set it up a little bit. Carolyn came to me with the Pottery Barn Inclusive Catalog. And I was like, ‘Well, first of all, it’s about time,’ but second of all, and more importantly, I was like, ‘we’ve got to get these people on the podcast, this is big stuff.’

Because it really kind of helps to normalize and creates, you know, beauty within the built environment. And I think you guys just doing an amazing job with that, and the process that you go through.

So I want to talk about all of that because I think the listeners want to know sort of the history, but also, how you get to those designs and how, you know, in your thoughtfulness and inclusion within talking to the population and making sure that everything is not only beautiful but functional, but also really quite accessible. So with that, I hope I tee-d you up well enough. So…

Donald: Oh, you sure did. I’m just going to take a step off this pedestal.

Janet: Well, you don’t have to, that’s what I’m here for. I’m here to help to amplify your voice. Right? So…

Donald: Yeah. Oh we need amplification. And we need everyone to help to get the word out there because it is, it’s a tough word. You know, it’s tough to get the message out there. (Janet: yeah). And it’s not always sexy stuff, (Janet: no). You know, (Janet: uh-uh), but it’s real, real-world problems. (Janet: right). So, uh, it takes a lot of us to lift it up and let it be known that everyone needs help from time to time.

You know, and I use the word ‘help’ euphemistically, but, you know, talking about disability, talking about aging in place and that became really on my radar over 20 years ago. And I’ll mention about that is, uh, you know, we talk about accessibility and the way we describe it is in 3 parts.

Originally, it was cognitive accessibility for us when we were first starting out in doing a lot of product design at Michael Gray’s office. And in terms of architecture as well, it was about a reaction to modernist architecture, (Janet: right), which a lot of times was so abstract, products that were being made were so abstract. And in terms of architecture, people didn’t know how to find the front door. (Janet: right). And that was really difficult, you know, I mean that should be…

Janet: … on a good day, right? (Donald: yeah).

Donald: Yeah. (Janet: right). So it’s because it was like a theoretical exercise. And I would say Michael Graves is very guilty of that in his early practice. (Janet: right). He was quite the modernist (Janet: right). And he ended up always finding himself having to explain his architecture to his clients and they just, he was so charismatic, that they just sort of took his word for it, like, ‘okay, whatever you say, Michael, that sounds great, you know, well, let’s just build it.’

And then he realized after a while that it was sort of left him unsatisfied, you know, having to always explain it and it just wasn’t intuitive where the front door was. So he started to reject his own design language, and he started to seek another one. And again, this is all under the idea of, you know, humanism, of cognitive accessibility.

And he started to look at figurative architecture. And what do I mean by that? I mean, like, going back to the classics. So, classical architecture, looking to Rome for answers. So that started informing our product design practice. So figurative architecture was more of a humanistic approach. People really were able to relate to this form of architecture. But, of course, in doing it, it wasn’t literal. It had its own form of abstraction built on top of it to make it relevant to today. So that was that first form of accessibility.

And then next we had financial accessibility, as we call it. And what were we doing then? That was, we were designing products, we started designing high-end tea kettles for Alessi, an Italian houseware manufacturer, and they weren’t financially accessible.

A tea kettle, (Janet: it was expensive). Yeah! you know, originally it started out, like Michael was insisting, we wanted it to be $65 or under $50, and it came out at $65, but then immediately went to $185, and now it sits at about $225 for a kettle.

So that’s not financially accessible for everybody, but the design was, and the design was very intuitive of what it was looking to, to be. I mean, again, it was reinventing how to boil water. I mean, it looks like a simple thing, but it brought a sort of poetry to boiling water. (Janet: right).

And then, what happened from that is in the 90’s when we talked about financial accessibility, Michael always wanted everyone to be able to afford his designs. So it was great that Alessi did this, it was high-level European housewares, but then we found a friend with Target.

And Target decided, ‘well, you know, Walmart is beating us in price.’ Again, this is 1999, right? (Janet: right). You had Walmart was number 1, K-mart was number 2, and Target was an up starter from the Midwest trying to make inroads, and they thought they couldn’t beat everybody on price, they could be competitive in price, but what about design as a factor, right, as a differentiator?

So they totally embraced design when no one in the United States really was doing that level of design. And they hired us to design the first year in 1999 when it launched 160 products in many categories of housewares and decorative accessories and jewelry and pets. You know, and over the years we were there for 13-years. It was a huge hit. You know, people instead of spending $225- dollars for a tea kettle, we did a tea kettle for $29.99, and it was every bit, you know, using all of those benchmarks from our high-end kettle, but here we had the power of the multiple.

And all these, at that point, factories in Asia able to open themselves up to produce this at a high level, that it just brought the price down and then everyone was able to afford good design. So we talk about that as a democratization of design that we, we like to feel we’re a big part of.

And then the last one— which is where we are right now, and again, it’s always evolving— is this idea of physical accessibility. And what I mean by that is, you know, this idea of ‘delight for all’ that we were able to experience firsthand in 2003. Michael Graves becoming disabled. (Janet: right). It kind of happened overnight.

I was taking a trip with him to a market in Europe, “Ambiente” they called it. And, uh, he just wasn’t feeling well. And when we came back from that show and spending all that time there, it was like the first time in my life seeing him that he had to take a sick day.

This was a man that spent all his time traveling the world to all his projects. You know, at one point he was the most famous architect in the United States, possibly the world in the late in the late 80’s, early 90’s, he was top dog. (Janet: right). And here he was in 2003 having to go home for a sick day. And that’s probably very common for most people, but not for Michael Graves. (Janet: right).

And I, you know, took a look at this, and I’m like, what’s going on here? He just, he came back, he just wasn’t lucid, and he went home. And then the next day, overnight, he was paralyzed from the waist down. Just like that.

Janet: That must have really affected you too, right?

Donald: Yeah, yeah, it was some form of freaky bacterial spinal meningitis. (Janet: meningitis, yeah). Yeah, and he still had use of his hands, but we were right in the throes of Target. (Janet: wow). Everything was about this democratization design. And now we had to address what is going on with our founder. (Janet: wow). How are we going to continue on? And, it took Michael going through 8 hospitals, 4 rehab centers, you know, he had to get used to his new normal of being in a wheelchair.

Luckily, he had the use of his hands, and it took about 2 solid years for him to find his way for everything to calm down, you know, because there were all these flare ups still going on where he had to be head back to the hospital, head back to the rehab center. Nothing was normal.

And then, him asking us if, ‘is there any way you can put a certain percentage of your time to start working on maybe some disability challenges,’ you know. And he realized, with us that it wasn’t about, knowing that he was an architect, knowing that he’s a designer. Now, knowing that he’s a patient, you know, he was able to really experience the indignities that were going on in these establishments— and very well-known establishments— of what constitutes feeling well? What constitutes healing? What is the healing process?

And he thought, I think there could be a better job. And I think I have the ability with my staff to do something about it. So, it was this, you know, ‘take lemons and turn them into lemonade’ moment for us. (Janet: right).

And at that point, I’m like, ‘I don’t want to do disability. I don’t want to do these types of products.’ I’m like, I am up to here, you know, up to… (Janet: oh, with work anyways, right, and now…). Well, with Target. I was loving Target. (Janet: chuckles). You know, we designed over 2000 products at Target. It was going great. (Janet: that’s amazing).

You know, we had the executive team’s voice. They were always asking like, ‘Donald, give us that ‘Graves’ wow’ factor. What can you do for us?’ Each, every, you know, all these different departments are coming to us, like, give us that Graves’ thing you do, you know, it’s like, you know, what is that ‘je-ne-sais-quoi’ of the, of the Graves language. You know, we want that.’ (Janet: chuckles). So I wasn’t ready to hear that at the time. (Janet: sure).

So what it took for me is, you know, to spend a little time in Michael’s shoes. And that meant getting a wheelchair, Donald, for a week. Now granted, I had some rules about this. I was in a wheelchair at work. I wasn’t in a wheelchair at home. (Janet: right). You know, Donald, walk with a cane for a week. (Janet: right). But I got the empathetic feeling for it. (Janet: right). I understood what that was saying to me and how to see it from his perspective, you know, because I was not willing to for a while. (Janet: yeah).

And then once we got started, he thought about it, it’s like, you know— like going into the hospital and you have these grandiose atriums, right? But where does the healing start? Where does it begin? And it starts in the patient room. So we thought, let’s dive in there. How can we make an impact in the patient room environment? So that was big. That was big for Michael because he was being asked to do, you know, some hospitals and rehab centers, but he really wanted to just put that aside and concentrate on these rooms. And what we noticed in the rooms are what? The bed, right? (Janet: right). There’s a bed, there’s a nightstand, there’s a recovery chair, like a rehab chair, there’s an over-bed table.

So we started looking like, who are the players in that? (Janet: right). And we realized it was like, Stryker Medical and Hillrom. In the United States at least, there’s 2 big players. And so we went knocking at the door. And little did we know, how hard a test that would be to get people’s attention. Because they’re like, ‘well, what experience do you have in doing healthcare?’ (Janet: oh!). Right? (Janet: interesting, right). Yeah. And, you know, so it’s sort of like, ‘can you show us your last healthcare project?’ (Janet: yeah). And they were like, well…

Janet: Oh, I know, yeah, we’ve all been through that as designers, (laughs).

Donald: Well, I got this guy in a wheelchair. You know, he’s got 50 years of experience.

Janet: … like, the most premier designer in the world. And, and he’s living the experience now. (Donald: yeah). That’s amazing. (Donald: yeah). And I totally understand that. I mean, we, you know, as designers, there is that sort of, pigeon hole, right? And I think that’s a really important point, that people just tend to put you in that box, like you’re a healthcare designer, you design for education, and I think that there’s the blurred lines that people don’t always see.

I’ll tell you a little quick story. I used to own my own production company. That’s why I do the podcast with Carolyn. That’s how I know Carolyn. And the joke in the industry was always, if you were up for a ketchup commercial, they would ask you if you’ve ever done a ketchup commercial. And it’s like, ‘well, I’ve done a relish, does that count?’ (Donald chuckles). And they’d be like, “hmm, sorry.” And you know, like there’s only a handful of ketchups out there, so I’m like, I think there’s a cross pollination that is able to, you know, go on there. So… (Donald: uh-huh). But anyways, I don’t mean to interrupt, (Donald: Oh, no, no, please do, please interrupt). But it’s, it’s very true, right? (Donald: yeah), yeah.

Donald: And, uh, you know, it was pushing rope uphill. (Janet: oh). Right?  Time and time again for us. (Janet: yeah). And it was, just, you really had to convince them. So you really had to put on your best pitch chops in order to make it happen and make a compelling argument for it. So if they’re not going to give us the bed— that was the coveted piece— like, let us work on the bed. And they’re like, you’re not working on the bed, you know? (Janet: really). And Hillrom, you know, Hillrom basically said, ‘no, we got that covered. we don’t need you for the bed.’

But Stryker was interested. And they were interested, not in the bed, but in attracting the design community. (Janet: interesting). So they thought that we could be a vehicle to attract the interior designers and the architects who were then working on these spaces in terms of designing the hospitals, but then having to fill them with the goods, with the beds, with the chairs. (Janet: right).

And Stryker knew they didn’t have the best chairs and the best over-bed tables. And there was one particular savvy person who thought, ‘well, you know, they have a name in the design community, let them try out doing an over-bed table. Let’s have them do the nightstand. Let’s have them do the recovery chair’.

So we got to do those pieces. So they gave us those and like, let’s see how you do with that. And let’s see if we get any perk in the design community. And so we worked on those 3 areas really, really hard. And spent a lot of time at it. And they saw some action. They started seeing an audience of interior designers that they hadn’t seen before specifying furniture. (Janet: interesting, yeah). Yeah. So that was in the plus column. It was working. They saw the value of it, and it was attracting a wider audience for them.

And then they came to us. And they said, ‘well, we have something else for you. We haven’t been able to connect the dots on this, but we have this mobility range. We do beds. You can roll the beds around. We have stretchers.’ You know, people might be familiar with a Stryker yellow stretcher. (Janet: yup). It’s the one at football games when a football player gets injured, they bring out the bright yellow stretcher. That’s a Stryker. (Janet: oh, I did not know that, yeah).

Yeah, so they sort of own, they own mobility in that front, (Janet: yeah). But they don’t own one major important piece within mobility. And that is the wheelchair. (Janet: ahh). And the wheelchair is kind of the gatekeeper. Like when you enter a hospital, it’s one of the first things you see, right?

Janet: And one of the last things you leave with. (Donald: yeah). Right, yeah.

Donald: Yeah. So it actually sets a sort of opinion about the type of care you’re going to get, (Janet: interesting), really by what type of wheelchair they have out there to greet you. (Janet: right). And we had one particular data point and that was that 30-percent of all wheelchairs get stolen out of the hospital environment every year. And we’re like, ‘wow!’ (Janet: yeah). So that means every 3 years you got to replace your fleet, right?

Janet: Right. Well, I mean, all you have to do is be in a city and see like abandoned wheelchairs, it’s like, well how did they get there? Right? (Donald: right). Right.

Donald: Yeah, and why is that, because they fold up, (Janet: yeah), right? (Janet: yeah). And you just throw them in the back of your car. (Janet: back of your car). Yeah, and we did that we stole we stole a wheelchair or 2. (Janet: laughs, uh oh). We brought it back. Yeah, just to see if we could do it and we were able to do it. So that was incredible. So we started building a case and we ended up designing what we call the ‘Prime TC’ or the ‘Prime Transport Chair.’ And it used many of the brand attributes of Target, (Janet: right), but it also used a lot of what we are all about, you know, with our design language.

So it was very friendly, it was very approachable. It was a type of, like, litmus test for me. I have both wheelchairs— a typical wheelchair, a common black wheelchair— and our wheelchair. At that time my son was very young, and I would say, “alright son, sit in this wheelchair.”

And he sat in the regular everyday wheelchair, and he started acting like he was sick. And just not feeling well. You know, so he was playing the role of what happens when you sit in that wheelchair. (Janet: right). And then I said, all right, go sit in our wheelchair. And he goes, all right, Dad, push me fast. (Janet: laughs). Make me move around.

So it was just a different mindset. (Janet: mindset, yeah). Out of the mouth of babes, (Janet: right), we changed the way you view wheelchairs in the hospital environment. (Janet: right), and it was a huge hit. I mean, I could spend an hour talking about all the other data points, but…

Janet: We can have you come back (Donald: yeah), with it, right? I mean with the wheelchair alone, that would be amazing. Yeah.

Donald: Yeah, but it broke new ground, and it was, basically, after doing all that, we were really looking at, you know, reducing patient theft, reducing infection and bacteria in the wheelchair. (Janet: there you go, yeah). And then the last one was absenteeism,

Janet: Oh! Because it’s not easy, right? that’s yeah…

Donald: Yeah, because the escorts, the people that are pushing them around are spending, they’re going 8-to-13 miles a day, so there’s a lot of back strain. So, when all was said and done, we checked off all those boxes. And there were white papers done and to this day we know of not any of the wheelchairs that we have designed have ever been stolen. (Janet: oh!). So we fulfilled that need and again that got us deeper into this health care game.

You know, from there we wanted to make some further inroads, and we had a couple more projects in sort of the medical community or acute care environment. And again, this chair was only designed for the acute care environment. It’s not something you’re going to roll or ambulate yourself. It’s non-self-ambulating, but it nests. So it always requires an escort. (Janet: yeah).

So, we tried in other areas. We started working with Kimberly Clark to do home health care. We thought there could be a good entry point for that. Because here we are in the hospital, but what about, we thought, you know, people don’t want to be in the hospital. They want to get out of the hospital and be able to go home. (Janet: right), and how can we help there? So we had this big, big push with working with the folks with Kimberly Clark. They saw this as a big opportunity.

We started making a whole list of major products to do like rollators and canes and other types of wheelchairs and bath safety items. And then we started producing canes. And one of the things we wanted to do is make them here in the United States. We actually had product made. But at the end of the day, something happened within the organization that they weren’t willing to go forward. (Janet: huh). And it sort of stopped it, and just we’ll leave it at that. But literally, literally, there was product made in packaging waiting to be shipped out (Janet: ooh), and it never happened. (Janet: wow!). We got that far with it.

Janet: Because I saw the prototypes on the website, and I kept thinking to myself, ‘I’m sorry, where are those? Like, how come I haven’t seen those’ (Donald: yeah). Right? (Donald: yeah). So are they over, are any of them overseas? or is it just all…

Donald: No, none of it. And if it was made, it had to be, uh, it just sort of disappeared. But, you know, we were actually, a lot of that was shown in a museum show at the Cooper Hewitt Museum in New York City. (Janet: nice). So it was on accessibility and disability. So we did show some of it, and I think that got us some inroads into some of our other places. (Janet: right).

So what my point being is you have some success and then you try some other things, and it doesn’t work out and it’s like 2 steps back. (Janet: right). But we have the tenacity that we just wanted to keep going. We just wanted to work in home healthcare. And also, I just wanted to tell you, I shook off my Target notion. All I wanted to do was healthcare now. (Janet: hmm). As a designer, the reward was so immense to me to do something that I know is going to help so many people that there was just sort of no turning back for me.

So it’s like, ‘why are we doing this?’ I would ask, ‘if we’re doing this for some other client, like, what’s its reason to be? Who’s it helping? (Janet: right). What’s it solving for? It just can’t be ‘design for design’s sake,’ there has to be some aspect of efficiency, some accessible notion of who the criteria is for. So that’s something that is deep in my ethos now of how I like to work.

Janet: Well, but I mean, it doesn’t matter, it’s about the human experience, right? Because it could be something that’s a chronic issue or it could be an acute issue. (Donald: yeah). And so with that, it does affect everybody. So like you said, I mean, those wheelchairs are sort of like the first things you see and the last things that you come out with.

And that could be everything from appendicitis to a hernia. I’ve had those just recently and then, you know, pregnancies, breaking your leg, breaking your arm, dislocating your shoulder. All of that stuff. (Donald: right). I don’t know many people that haven’t, or just even cutting yourself. Like I just cut myself over Thanksgiving and I couldn’t stop bleeding. (Donald: aww). I, well, (Donald: how’d you do that?), I was in the kitchen. That was what happened. Right, it’s one of those.

Donald: That’s a dangerous place for you?

Janet:  It’s a dangerous place for me. But even as a kid, my parents used to call me ‘the emergency room child’ because there was always something, do you know what I mean? There was always something going on. So, I’ve been in the emergency rooms many, many times in my life, but I’m relatively healthy. But it just goes to show you things happen, right?

So, you know, like you said, I mean, it really affects, like, everybody. But anyways, I think it’s interesting though, you talk about the, the setbacks, right? The naysayers. The people that were kind of a little on the fence, that was something that, you guys have encountered, but you guys have this tenacity that you were like, you’re just going to go forward with it. Kind of almost, like it or not, right?

Donald: Yeah, and I think we might have been a little early to the game. (Janet: yes, you were). Right. (Janet: yeah). And the reason I say that is because, you know, for us, we were sort of waiting on the baby boomers, right? So the baby boomers… (Janet: yeah, the ‘silver tsunami, yeah…’). (laughs) Yeah, the silver tsunami.

Yeah, and at that point, when we were starting to do this back in 2003 to 2005, I mean, we were even knocking on Target’s store at that time when we were still working for them to start doing some items in their stores. And they just were like ‘you know what, that sounds fine, that sounds good, but we’re not quite ready for that. We’d rather be more fast followers than leaders of this movement right now. And we’ll just sort of wait and see.’ (Janet: fast followers, interesting).

Yeah, you know, many of the baby boomers were, they’re still in their 40’s and 50’s, right? (Janet: yeah). Now 20 years later, they’re in their 60’s and 70’s and 80’s, right? (Janet: 80’s, yeah). So they’re there, and they’re ready. And what are they used to? They’re used to a certain lifestyle. They’re used to living a certain way. (Janet: yeah). They’re used to having really great designed things, objects, artifacts. (Janet: yeah). And, you know, they’re not going to put up with anything less.

They’re not going to put up with something that looks too medical, too institutional. Something that doesn’t, it feels additive versus integrated with their lifestyle in their home. So you have to sort of start thinking about that is what are they willing to, not accept, but embrace.

Janet: Well, but they’ve always marched to their own drummer, right? (Donald: mm-hmm), that was sort of like the cornerstone. And they’d also just watched their parents go through all of this, right?

Donald:Which was the silent generation. Right? (Janet: right). They just, they didn’t complain about anything. Anything you give me, it’s great. I’ll take it. (Janet: That’s fine, right). Yeah, I’ll just go to the Goodwill store and take a used one. (Janet: exactly, right).

This group is not putting up with that. (Janet: No, uh-uh, no). Yeah, and there was some statistic, and you’re probably very aware of this is, in 2030, Americans over 65 will compose of 20 percent of the population. (Janet: yeah). So that’s about 72 million people. (Janet: yeah). That’s coming in, you know, 5-years. (Janet: yeah). Right. so that’s a big group.

Janet: This point in our time, like, we’re just starting to crest with the tsunami. Do you know what I mean, like? (Donald: yeah). and it’s going to be a big deal, (Donald: yeah). Right.

Donald: Yeah. So we were looking to see like, well, how could we do something that is integrated versus something that’s additive, because they’re just going to figure out, they’re not going to accept it. So, you know, we started to again during this time with Stryker, we’re knocking on doors still. We’re figuring like who has, you know, this level of exposure or presence, and that was the pharmacies in this country.

You know, the CVSs of the world, the Walgreens, even the Walmart, the Rite Aids, you know, there’s so many of them within a 5-mile radius of everyone. (Janet: yeah). I mean, they become the new convenience stores or not even new, they are the convenience stores. (Janet: right).

So we started knocking on those doors – no one was answering, doors would be slammed in our face. ‘If it ain’t broke, why fix it?’ was really the message we were getting. And we’re like saying ‘it is broke, and it does need to be fixed, but you’re just sort of used to making it a certain way, and you’re not giving people the right choices.’ (Janet: right).

And what did we want to do in the in the in the pharmacies? We wanted to, you know, reinvent home health care products. So that means commodes really, you know again, I use this term, It’s a horrible product item. (Janet: right). To have a commode in your home. (Janet: yup). I’d say, there’s nothing sexy about it, (Janet: no). And that’s exactly why I wanted to take it on. It’s like, why I want to design this. (Janet: interesting).

Because it’s so overlooked, nobody literally wants to touch it. (Janet: yeah). And I’m like, ‘I want that item. I want to reinvent that item.’ And then there was the shower chair, which can work in the bathtub, can work in the shower. Raised toilet seats. You know, again, it’s one of these things, when you see a raised toilet seats in someone’s home, that bathroom is now off limits to everyone in the house.

Right? Because it’s stuck on there, and there’s no way you’re going to pry it off and want to touch that, (Janet: uh-uh), this roto-molded, blow-molded item with this plastic turnkey that you don’t know what has been touching that or been spilling on that. (Janet: no). So it’s one of these, it’s the relegated bathroom that no one is going to go to. (Janet: yeah, right).

And then we just were seeing these canes, these medical looking canes or canes that people, it was like the same old cane, but they were maybe doing some sort of graphic. As I call it, lipstick on a pig. (Janet: laughs). It still was a cane at the end of the day.

Janet: I put a lot of stickers on my canes, you know. (Donald: laughs). It was very great. And then it looked kind of silly. Here’s this middle-aged woman with a broken leg. You know what I mean? With like, ‘Hello Kitty’ stickers on it. (Donald: yeah). I let my niece do some of it. So there was, you know, part of the design with that. But I was kind of proud of it because she had done it. But I was also like…

Donald: But at least you’re looking to change how it’s viewed, right, by customizing it? (Janet: right). That’s the point. You’re trying to transform it to something else because in its current iteration it needs, it needs help.

Janet: Right. And it was also a little cheerful. (Donald: yeah). Right, it was a little more cheerful.

Donald: Yeah, it was a little more cheerful versus reminding you that I’m not doing well, (Janet: right). I’m not able to get around. (Janet: right). You know, and you want it to enable you in the right way, with the right message, not the wrong message. (Janet: right).

So, you know, and then the last on our list was the walker. Right? We knew we weren’t ready to do a rollator in this home health care mainly because a lot of these things, they take up space. They’re in big boxes. (Janet: yeah). Right? So the canes are in smaller boxes, but a commode is in a big box. So that might have to be an online place.

So we started, again knocking on these doors, and we finally found a champion because that’s what you need, an executive champion. (Janet: you need a champion, yeah). Yeah, and with this great person at CVS who had merchandise retail experience. She came from another retailer, so she sort of understood, uh, what it takes to have product on shelf, a really good compelling product, and she got it.

And finally, after so many rejections, so many no’s, and even at CVS, they initially rejected us 3 or 4 times, we just had to wait for the revolving door of executives to work their way through to get to the right executive.

Janet: Listeners, listen in! Hooray! Like that’s how you (Donald: yeah). Goes back to tenacity again, (Donald: and, yeah!), right, like, ‘yeah, we’ll just keep coming back’. Okay. (Donald: yeah, yeah). Right.

Donald: Look, look, alright, we heard that person was let go or moved on, and now we’re going to knock on the door again. (Janet: chuckles). You know, so you got, yeah, you have to, you just have to be patient, and you just have to find the right audience at that time. So yeah, so we dug in. And you know, talking about people in aging is, we heard people say like, ‘Oh, I’m only 78- years old’, (Janet: laughs).

And when, with the average life expectancy in the U.S. being, I think it’s something like 78.69 years. It’s clear that old is really universally relative. (Janet: yeah). So someone older than you is old, (Janet: right), anyone younger than you is young. (Janet: right, chuckles). And I love that, how people view themselves. I always love a good data point. (Janet: yes).

But we also had this other data point that falls are the most common and universally dangerous accident that can happen to an elder. (Janet: yeah). If you fall, there’s a 30-percent chance that you’ll be dead… (Janet: dead). Gone. In a year. (Janet: in a year?). Yeah. And a 60-percent chance that you’ll never regain the function that you previously had. That’s really telling!

Janet: Which could also be, not just the year, but then it’s that, it’s a slow decline at that point. So it’s really, it’s really important. I believe I told you this in the pre-interview. I had gone and I found, what, it was a celebrity who had re-done their bathroom. It was a gorgeous shower, gorgeous, gorgeous, gorgeous shower. But he’s an older gentleman, and the designer did not give him grab bars, which he had all black hardware in there.

So it would have been very easy to put in a couple of really beautiful black, you know, I call them ‘sexy cool’ grab bars. (Donald: I love it). I hash tagged that. (Donald: I love it). But you know, you can, there’s so many beautiful grab bars. To your point people don’t want them like the commode, right? Like they’re like, ‘oh grandma lives here,’ or that’s off base.

But for him, I wrote to him, and I said listen ‘you know, you’re going to need it.’ I didn’t go as far as saying, well, you might die if you’re slipping in this very beautiful shower. Or at least if nothing else is going to prevent you from, you know, maybe doing kind of what you love, which is to act and perform. (Donald: uh-huh, uh-huh). I stopped short of that, but I did use the analogy that if nothing else, those grab bars are good just to have sex in the shower.

Donald: I love that. That’s awesome. (laughs).

Janet:  But it’s such an important piece to life, right? (Donald: laughs). I mean, like, right?

Donald: Yeah, a lot of things happen in the shower. Why not that? (laughs).

Janet:  I just read an article the other day, and the most common places that most people have fantasies of having sex is in the shower. So…

Donald: Wow. So, you’re solving for that.

Janet: I am. I am the hero (laughs).

Donald: You’re my hero now. (Janet: laughs). You’re my new hero.

Janet: … for sex in the shower with a grab bar. Exactly. (Donald: yeah).

Donald: It’s like S-I-S… Sex In the Shower. (Janet: SIS, laughs). I love it, the SIS.  (Janet: that’s right, laughs). Go right to an acronym. There you go. Wow. But what a great selling point of like how to re-market grab bars. (Janet: yeah). Like just perfect for having…  (Janet: sex in the shower). Yeah, yeah. intimacy in the shower.

Janet: Right? I mean, it makes a lot of sense to me. (Donald: yeah, yeah). I think what you guys have done, and I think what is really important for the listeners to understand is that you’re helping to really kind of humanize, right? (Donald: uh-huh. right, we’re de-stigmatizing). De-stigmatizing everything. Right. (Donald: yeah).

And then again, with the crazy, sexy, cool grab bars, (Donald: chuckles), hashtag that I came up with (Donald: love it), again thinking about like you know what these things can look pretty cool. (Donald: yeah), you know and so…

Donald: I think you’ve got the change. It’s like the love bar.

Janet: The love bar. (laughs). You know, anytime you guys want to hire me, I am, I am available. (Donald: yeah, let’s, talk some more about that). We can talk about that. But anyways, so, but I think that that’s a really important point— making these things, you know, accessible and beautiful and the ability to really like incorporate things, like you said, like in the household.

Having these types of liaises of even just between the health care and all this stuff that you’re also doing with Pottery Barn, it’s making it, it’s also making it less scary. I think that that’s part of the point, right? Did you feel that way or is it just making sure that people understand that it’s something comfortable, something that we can do better with.

Donald: Yeah, because I think I mean— let’s talk about that when you say less scary, because if that means your environment might be looking more institutional versus comforting? (Janet: right, right).

And a lot of these items tend to be cold. (Janet: yeah), right, in their approach (Janet: and their design, yeah). Yeah, versus how do you warm them? (Janet: yeah). And again, I think that helps segue into aspects of our new relationship with Pottery Barn. (Janet: right). Right. So Janet, what a great segue.

Janet: It’s a great segue.

Donald: Well, the one thing that I want to impress upon is, this work is really hard. (Janet: yeah). Any design work, doing all this work, as you know it, it’s hard. (Janet: yeah). It’s hard to do this. (Janet: yeah, it is).

And you know, it’s just not a matter of getting a piece of paper and start sketching. it involves a lot of research. (Janet: yeah). And what I mean by that is it’s not necessarily always quantitative research, but for us it tends to be more qualitative. So we’re sort of in observation mode. We do a lot of ethnography. We do a lot of CPTs, which is Consumer Preference Testing for every project. (Janet: yeah).

So we’re sort of building upon those interviews because we don’t have all the answers. You know, we, it would just be, ridiculous to think that we knew everything about these categories. We’re always learning, we’re always surprised by it. So like when we did Stryker, we went to 40 different hospitals, both here in the United States and in Europe, because they sell in Europe as well. We just wanted to make sure that whatever we’re making, it’s truly going to be accepted by people.

And getting that much closer with people, you know, and talking with people, designing with people, really helps reduce the risk that you’re headed down the wrong path. And you’re doing that more upfront than waiting down the line. Do you understand what I mean? (Janet: oh absolutely, yeah).

Because these are big investments, (Jane: yeah), you know, we’re just not doing a cut and sew. We’re not like making a sweater or a, adaptive clothing where, where it is cut and sew.

What we’re doing involves heavy industrialization, lots of tooling, right? To make molds, to do injection molding, to bend metal. (Jane: yeah). You know, it’s fierce and it’s loud and it’s disruptive. So you just have to make sure that your research backs it all up.

So even when we’re working with CVS, we did this high level of ethnography where we went out on the road. We drove up and down the East Coast from New York to Florida, interviewing people in their homes (Janet: wow), to see first-hand. Because many times what people say, isn’t what people do.

Janet: Or they might not even remember what it is that they do, right.

Donald: Right, yeah. But we watch people like describe how they would sit in their chair, but then they, they would sit in the chair, and it was very different. (Janet: right). When we’re talking about ingress and egress of getting in and out of a chair. (Janet: yeah). And so we formulate, we use all this database of information as we bring it forth to every project.

So with Pottery Barn, they were looking to extend their collection, or their offering in accessible furniture. And they had done an initial offering in office furniture several years ago. And it addressed certain issues basically for wheelchair users. And they just basically lifted everything up to a certain standard that people in wheelchairs could get their wheelchair underneath the table. But they, they weren’t satisfied with that. They wanted to do more. (Janet: interesting). Yeah. (Janet: yeah, good for them).

So they they actually were advertising, and they sought out one of my partners, because he, you know, was with me, high level research and they basically were looking to him to see if he wanted to leave our company and join Pottery Barn. (Janet: hmm, laughs). Yeah! So, I don’t think they meant to be poaching. (Janet: no), but they knew he had high level expertise.

And so he said, ‘Well, how about not me? How about if I bring our organization into this and we can help you?’ Because they had a younger staff who really, they hadn’t immersed themselves in accessibility. They hadn’t done the ethnography. They just didn’t have the experience, but they had the will, right? And that’s who we were partnering with. So they were very interested in learning how to do this with us. So, we were able to convince them, instead of taking Rob, take us all. (Janet: chuckles).

You know, so the Michael Graves Design Group joined forces and partnered with Pottery Barn to take on the next level of the home. You know, knowing that they had done office, next on the list for them was bedroom. (Janet: yeah). Right? (Janet: yeah). So, you know, we were looking at bedroom.

So, it was interesting because, it had to be done in such a way that it really worked well with their lifestyle brand. You know, it’s all about comfort for them. (Janet: correct). You know, they’re all, they’re just so good. No one, no one is better than Pottery Barn, I feel at being able to create that lovable, comfortable home. (Janet: yeah). And…

Janet: That’s why they’ve been very successful for many decades now.

Donald: Yeah. They have- it’s comfort, it’s quality, it’s style, and it’s absolute value. (Janet: yeah). You know, people look to them to be the leaders. (Janet: right). So they wanted us to figure this out with them and we were used to going in and we’re going to design a new type of bed for them and new dresser, new sideboard, new headboard. But that’s not what they were looking for.

They wanted to sort of prove it out a little bit, you know, similar to what they did with the office where they took some existing styles. Because we know they know how to design (Janet: yes), their designs are lovely. (Janet: right). They’re really great, but they wanted to add what we knew about functional enhancements. (Janet: hmm).

Right, what features could we add to give it a boost. (Janet: yeah). Literally to give it a boost in order to get people in and out of bed. (Janet: right). In order to get people to navigate their bedroom. (Janet: right). You know, what we call, furniture surfing, to be able to hold onto the furniture and surf the room.

Janet: Can I tell you something? I think that that’s one of the… I don’t mean to interrupt, but… (Donald: oh no, please do). I can’t help myself because I think this is really, I mean, looking at the catalog, and a few pieces that really kind of stuck out to me was the, you know, just putting the CPAP machine and having a little area for the tube, you know, in the back, right? For those of you who don’t know, it’s for sleep apnea. So it’s kind of tucked away so that you’re not falling over it at night. I thought that that was fantastic.

Donald:? (Janet: the clutter, yes!), and the sort of visual pollution that’s going on around your bedroom. (Janet: the visual pollution). And then it also helps that we put some outlets within the furniture (Janet: yes). And what does that help with? That eliminates people bending, reaching over the furniture, bending over to try to find an outlet. (Janet: …or through the furniture). Or through the furniture. (Janet: …between the furniture). Yeah, and that’s dangerous. (Janet: hmm). That’s when falls happen. (Janet: yeah). That’s where someone bangs their head on the lamp on the way up or knocks over something. (Janet: right).

And then even in that, every piece, you know, we tried to make sure there were safe grab points on every piece of furniture. (Janet: right). There was containment. So with that nightstand, you’re not knocking something over, or you’re, as I would say, my lip balm isn’t rolling off, and now, I mean, it’s, it’s a chronic thing, lip balms always roll off.

Janet: Right, just by the way. We’re showing up our lip balms. (Donald: yes, yes). Right, so we’re lip balm people. Okay.

Donald: And you put it away, or you put it down for the evening or the night, and it just rolls off your dresser.

Janet: And you can hear it, (Donald: yeah), ‘boof’ and then rolling away, right. (chuckles).

Donald: Yeah. But do you know how often that happens to people? It’s a chronic thing, yeah. (Janet: It’s a chronic), Carolyn just raised her hand. (chuckles).

Janet: Oh, yeah. So the lip balm also goes missing quite a bit. So that’s the other thing.

Donald: Yes. And then you’ve got to get down on your knees to start looking under furniture.

Janet: We’re all aware of the rolling lip balm. So I thought that that was ingenious too….

Donald: And then again, these are small things, but if you do a couple of, 2- to 3 solutions for every piece of furniture, you have innovation. (Janet: right). That’s innovation. (Janet: right). Right, so that’s what we’re looking, but we’re trying to do it quietly. (Janet: right on). So what we call it is quietly accessible. (Janet: yes). And so at Pottery Barn, they’re using their tried-and-true platforms or design styles, Farmhouse style, Sausalito. (Janet: Sausalito, right, yeah), Cayman. (Janet: yeah).

So again, it was like safe grab points in every piece of furniture containment with seating, enhanced seating, meaning finding the right height so that when you sit down, you can get out of the chair. You’re not like sucked into the chair and you can never get up again like some of those sofas out there. (Janet: oh my goodness, yeah). And then, the idea of ground clearance.

So again, being sensitive to how wheelchairs navigate the room to have clearance for wheelchairs. (Janet: right), right.

Janet: Yes. And then also, and I thought that this was clutch, was underneath the dresser drawer you made the area for people’s feet when they’re in a wheelchair because they’re… (Donald: right, you need 9-inch clearance, 9-inches), right, 9-inches clearance, right (Donald: yeah). And it’s very simple. It can be done with almost any piece of furniture, but it was part of the collection, and it was thought out. (Donald: yeah).

And then I also want to bring up besides the, it was the side tables with the CPAP machine and the cabinet was genius too. But the two things that really stuck out for me, which was one I thought was complete genius and the other one was like, I could’ve used that. I just had; I had a hernia repair. (Donald: oh). Because I had an appendix. So the appendix had the hernia. So it’s a whole thing.

Donald: Wait, so was it appendicitis and a hernia?

Janet: Appendicitis caused the hernia. (Donald: oh), the ski accident caused the appendicitis that caused the, (laughs), right? So right. I mean, it’s not just me in the kitchen with a knife, right? (Donald: wow). So I mean, again, emergency rooms… emergency room visits.

Donald: Wow, you’ve spent your time in the hospital as well.

Janet: Yes, I have. And it’s funny, because I do have, you know, friends who are designers who are in healthcare. They’re like, so what was it like? You know what I mean? I know what they mean. They don’t want to know, like, what was my care like? They want to know what the physical environment was like. (Donald: yeah).

So again, that it was incorporated into like the headboard and the sideboards of the bed. And it was… (Donald: right, there’s a grab rail), grab rail, but it’s not a rail. It’s, it looks just like the bed. (Donald: yeah). It looks like it would be incorporated into the bed. Nobody would ever know.

Donald: And you would not hit your body on it. (Janet: no). It’s at the same level as the mattress, and at the same level of the nightstand. So it’s not like if you have a glass of water on your nightstand, it’s going to bump, you have to raise it up. (Janet: yeah).

Yeah. We sort of looked at the landscape. (Janet: smart). Right? All those datum points to make sure that they were even. And again, it’s just really looking. (Janet: yup). And then there’s also a ‘pole and roll’ side grip that helps you reposition in bed. And that’s just like, it looks, it just looks like a little bump out. You know, so all of these things are very quiet. (Janet: quiet, yeah).

So if I put the Sausalito bed next to our enhanced Sausalito bed, you wouldn’t ever say that’s, that’s a medical device. (Janet: no). It’s not. (Janet: no). It’s just, it’s an enhanced piece of stylish furniture, is what it is.

Janet: Right. And then do you know where I think that the genius fully came in? I’m sure you do. Right. (Donald: please tell me). I mean, I loved all of it, but I thought, I literally went, ‘wow’ when I saw it was… having that sturdy chair and having, again, the grab bar behind on the rest of the chair. (Donald: yeah), because I mean people, you know…

Donald: Yeah, it’s just acknowledging furniture surfing. Everybody does it.

Janet: Yeah, kids do it, we all do it.

Donald: Yeah, furniture surfing. It’s a thing.

Janet: Furniture surfing, yeah. It is a thing. But it also looks beautiful. It doesn’t have that, like, 1970’s, you know, block furniture. You know what I’m talking about, like that has been in every institution.

Donald: Right. We were really, really careful that we just weren’t sticking on grab bars on everything. (Janet: nice). They’re integrated, like even on the dresser there’s what we call grab channels. (Janet: yeah). So it just looks like a little trough. It just raises up and it’s super comfortable when you touch it, you don’t want to let go. (Janet: nice). It feels so good how we manipulated the wood to just give this much comfort to a hand. It’s incredible. (Janet: right).

And it tested so well when we were doing the consumer preference testing, (Janet: yeah). We would just sort of bring people over to it. And we just asked them a couple of questions, not relating to it, and they would just sort of grab onto it. They would naturally hold onto the corner, hold the end, (Janet: naturally hold it). And that’s it. (Janet: interesting). And like, that’s just observation, watching where they put their hands. (Janet: right). And it just helps you to open the drawers when you’re bending over, there’s this nice grip in the channel. (Janet: right).

And then even all the drawers we made a certain width, and we made sure they all had handles. (Janet: yeah, I saw that), not knobs (knobs, yeah), because you realize people with hand dexterity issues cannot use a knob. (Janet: yup). Anyone with a prosthetic device cannot use a knob, (Janet: nope). You need a handle.

Janet: Yeah, I’ve got this little beautiful cabinet that, you know, where the lip balm rolls off of every night. (Donald: laughs), it’s a beautiful cabinet. I love it, but it’s got these 2 little, teeny tiny knobs on the drawer. That’s where I’ve got to put the lip balm in there now, so it doesn’t roll off. But it’s hard for me to pull that little sucker out. And it’s just because it’s awkward. It’s just been an awkward, I think manufactured piece anyways. (Donald: yeah). But when you’ve got them, those little, teeny tiny knobs, it was just like, (Donald: yeah), it was never, never a very smooth operation.

Donald: Yeah, and making sure everything has soft corners or soft edges (Janet: yeah), so that, you know, sometimes older skin tears very easily. (Janet: yeah).

Janet: So, but I want to make sure that our listeners know that all the information that Donald has provided us with will be on our website. We have a reference page that will just kind of go over everything and, (Donald: yeah). And Donald will tell us what kind of images that we also want to put up there. (Donald: oh yeah). I just wanted to let our listeners know that.

Donald: Yeah, I do want to say that just with the seating, you know, we were just really careful to, we consulted with occupational therapists and physical therapists (Janet: nice), to make sure that people were naturally sitting in the right position. And when they get up, there’s that old adage of ‘nose over toes’ (Janet: ‘nose over toes’ yeah).

And it’s just naturally occurring where the handrail is that you just lift yourself up. So just everything has a reason to be. (Janet: right). It’s just not by chance and it’s all been vetted and tested and designed with people who have balance issues, have arthritis, are pregnant.

The way we talked about it was permanent disability, situational disability, and temporary disability. (Janet: right). Because at some point, we all have some form of disability. You know, it’s dis-abled. (Janet: yeah). It’s part of your future.

Janet: Right. If you’re planning on living, this is, right, this is how it’s going.

Donald: Yeah. (Janet: right). So, and I say pregnancy because that’s sort of a temporary disability. (Janet: right). I don’t mean to sound harsh like pregnancy is a disability, but… (Janet: no, I know what you mean). You are not able to do the things you’re normally able to do, because of your pregnancy, especially in the later months. (Janet: right).

You know, and then a situational disability could be just coming in and you have one handful of groceries, and you only have the ability to use one arm or one hand to do something. (Janet: yup). So you’re less one arm. (Janet: yeah).

So it’s good for all. It’s just, it’s for people who want to make good decisions now in their lives, right? They might not have any issues going on because the furniture just works super just as it is. But then as you start to age in place, it’s aging with you (Janet: right), in the right manner. (Janet: correct).

And I think that’s really important to say that it’s just not like, ‘oh, I have this issue now. I got to get this furniture’… No, a new married couple would be so smart to have this furniture in their lives, (Janet: yeah), of what they’re going to go through. (Janet: right).

And then also, if you’re entertaining people to stay over in your home for several days, it could be your parents or some elders. (Janet: yeah). Boy, do you look like, you’ve thought about everything for them that you’re presenting them with this type of bedroom that they could be really comfortable in. (Janet: right). Right, it’s a high-level consideration. (Janet: yes). You know, to think about your guests that way. (Janet: yup). And they’re going to be more prone to want to visit you.

Janet: Right. Well, that might be a problem there, Donald. (laughs). I don’t know. I mean, like, I don’t want to think about that. (laughs).

Donald: Oh, I love my in-laws. My in-laws are always welcome. (laughs).

Janet: I’m just, I’m throwing that out there, you know, you know, everybody, you do you, (Donald: right, right, right. chuckles), so it’s all good. So, let’s talk about the future of design. I mean, because this is great stuff, you know, but I got to think that there’s more to come, right? So…

Donald: Yeah, and there’s hopefully more to come with Pottery Barn. I can’t speak to every aspect of that, but, you know, I mean, one of the places that’s always been of interest to us, where we started off even with CVS, is in the bathroom.

So you can imagine, you know, let me get my hands on that. you know. (Janet: yeah). Give me that bathroom because that is such a dangerous place, right? (Janet: hello, chuckles).  I mean, in your work, is that a red flag that goes up time and time again for you is the bathroom? And how to audit that bathroom?

Janet: Oh, you know, it’s funny, even before I got into design, like, I’ve always had sort of like a mindset of, you know, what I liked, what I didn’t like. But I was always curious about the bathroom because it was just, I don’t want to say it kind of almost felt like an afterthought, like because people put money into their kitchens, right? Like people will do that (Donald: yeah), on their living room sets and stuff like that. And the bathroom, I mean people do want nice bathrooms. They want the spa like experience, right? But they, I feel like that’s changed…

Donald: How has it changed? What do you mean by that?

Janet:  I think, again, watching the evolution from like the 1970’s of bathrooms where like you have like maybe like the penny tiles and that type of deal. Like there was more of a, again, it was that modernism that really just didn’t have that human touch. It was a little bit colder. In the 70’s was kind of cool on some level like, ‘look what we can do!’ (Donald: chuckles), But it was also, it wasn’t very warm, right? Now people really want like a warm, again, spa like experience. (Donald: mm-hmm, mm-hmm, soft, softness), soft, softness to it, (Donald: yeah), even if it’s all hard surfaces.

Donald: Right. also, when those surfaces get wet, like the floor… (Janet: oh my goodness). Right, yeah, it’s just, wipe out.

Janet: Yeah, like I said- that movie star is going to be bummed out at some point. (Donald: laughs). But I’m, I’m just throwing that out there. I’m not going to use any names.

But you know, again, yes, the bathroom in my mind, for being an inclusive designer, being a designer for health and wellness, it’s such an important part of everyday living. (Donald: yeah). And again, you know, activities of daily living mostly go on in the bathroom. (Donald: um-hmm).

And so there’s a plethora of things that can go wrong with it, including, you know, everything, lighting and acoustics, and ventilation, and too many hard surfaces.

But mostly in terms of accessibility, like, even now, besides the grab bar situation, or grab rails, people are like, I don’t want that. That’s going to make it look like granny’s house. It’s going to bring down the value of my home to have that in there. Like they couldn’t ever take it out by the way. (Donald: no). It’s some sort of mystery. (Donald: yeah).

Donald: But why would you ever take it out? It’s good for little kids. (Janet: yeah). It’s good if you’re washing your dog, you can have them on the leash and you can put the leash on there. It has so many, just you have to think differently about it. (Janet: right). Yeah, oh, you know what, yeah, here we are talking about the grab bar again.

Janet: The grab bar, I know.

Donald: Oh my god, yeah. I brought up the bathroom. You kept going to the grab bar.

Janet: Well, I couldn’t help it, but there’s so many areas that the grab bar can play a part in, in the bathroom.

Donald: Yeah, yeah. And also you need to think about it even differently. Just think about If there’s a step leading into your house. (Janet: yeah), how great would it be if you had some form of bar that matched your door hardware? And it could be a small little bar. Maybe someone needs to do this. (Janet: Janet). The Baldwin Hardware’s of the world. I’ll be calling them later.

Yeah, it’s, it’s so great to have, if you need to get into the house and there’s one step that you just had a little bar that matched your hardware that’s right on the outside of the door and maybe on the inside of the door. And it’s discreet, but it fits right on the molding there. And it just, it’s another way of allowing you to get in, and out and about.

Janet: Or even just having your parents, or your in-laws, or whatever, to come into your house to, like, be able to spend some time with you on your new Pottery Barn furniture. (laughs), (Donald: that’s right), and stay forever. (laughs).

Donald: Yeah, so we’re thinking you, I mean, you’ve tapped upon it, ADLs, the activities of daily living. (Janet: yeah). It’s deep immersion for us, you know, we want to create moments of joy with those products that are visually appealing, (Janet: nice), full of character and purpose and enhance people’s lives. (Janet: right).

And so, one place we’re starting to look deeply in, is in the world of gadgets and tools, right? Because we think it’s ripe for re-invention. There’s been some players that I am very close to; have worked in that category for 30-years. And I will just say, you know, there’s something that you grab the handle and it’s very soft to the touch and it’s good to grip, right? (Janet: yeah). But it’s not doing enough. And it’s ripe for reinvention. (Janet: yes).

So we’re looking at ways to hold and do and perform typical tasks in your house without having to have such a firm grip. (Janet: yeah). But you’re still able to use, and enjoy cooking, and enjoy cleaning, enjoy doing storage organization, all of these categories, which many times rely on the way you certainly hold things to reinvent how you hold them. And they’re done in a way that they’re still good for everyone. Everyone can use them.

Janet: Everybody can use them. (Donald: yeah). Well, especially going back to the ‘Silver Tsunami’ coming. I’ve got a lot of friends that are in their 70’s, approaching 80’s. And you know, to even to open up a can, to hold a golf club. All of these, you know, and again, it goes down to arthritis and stuff like that. But just to make things a little bit easier, and again, beautiful and removing, I guess, the shame of it, right? Like, I think if we start using it for everybody and it’s universal, that it doesn’t have that same, like, ‘ooh, I need this product’.

Donald: Yeah, the one thing that’s unfortunate is, I can’t always talk about everything I’m working on at the moment because I’m under an NDA. (Janet: laughs).

Janet: You can always come back, Donald. (Donald: I would love that). We can talk about the grab bars more and whatever you’re doing.

Donald: Yeah, oh definitely going to talk about the grab bars more. (Janet: okay). It’s kind of different like than you know from our architectural practice where you can talk about the building you’re working on, right, it’s not like anyone’s going to copy that. (Janet: right). But when you’re giving away proprietary information (Janet: I understand), that could have intellectual property tied to it, (Janet: yeah, right). You just, you have to talk about it a little more a little globally, (Janet: and a little bit broader). Yeah. (Janet: right, exactly). Yeah. (Janet: right).

So again, that does give a reason to come back because everything we’re doing has personality, purpose, you know, there’s perspective to it. We, you know, it’s sort of the tenets and the philosophy are of our design of how we work.

And then I think the other thing that’s important that we apply to our design philosophy is the idea of practice. The fact that we are really working industrial designers and product designers. You know, we’re just not theorizing about this stuff. We’re making it happen. (Janet: right). Whether it’s with a partner or we’re doing it ourselves. (Janet: yeah). You know, we’re in a unique position to make things ourselves now, which is wonderful.

And then the other thing is just possibilities. We’re always dreaming. Right, we’re always, like you said, you wanted to walk into someone’s bathroom to see what’s going on in there. (Janet: laughs). We talk about the ‘what ifs. (Janet: right). Yeah. How are we going to do this now? (Janet: right). But you learn a lot just by like, well, why are you thinking about it that way? Why are you holding it that way? (Janet: exactly).

You know, what are the possibilities of that? (Janet: right).  So it’s the ‘what ifs,’ you know, is what we’re always asking, we’re always looking to do and looking to uncover. It’s just about staying monumentally curious

Janet: Yeah, and I think that’s a great place to leave it, Donald. I just want to thank you so much for coming on Inclusive Designers Podcast. I just want to remind all our listeners that we’ll have all of this information and more on our website: inclusivedesigners.com.

And, if there’s anything you want to add, Donald, before we leave, if there’s like that last little, little nugget you want to give to designers who will be listening to this, words of wisdom.

Donald:  I think it’s really important to figure out what makes you want to get up in the morning, design-wise. (Janet: nice). And then just, we talked about tenacity. (Janet: yeah). If you come from a design background, you’re going to be thick skinned anyway. (Janet: yeah). I mean, you, you start to learn about design by doing critiques, right? You go to school, and you get a crit from a professor.

Janet: (laughs) Nobody told me that when I got there, right, exactly.

Donald: So, you’re conditioned from the start, (Janet: yeah), to hear what other people have to say about it, to give their opinion, and then instead of shutting down, (Janet: yeah). react to it in a positive way that’s going to move it forward. (Janet: move it forward). That’s the tenacity, that’s what you have to do. And just make sure that whatever you’re doing, it has incredible value for people.

Janet:  Right. And it appears that that is exactly what you guys are doing. Donald Strom, thank you so much for joining us today. It’s been a great pleasure. And please, please, please come back at some point when you can talk about all the other amazing stuff that you’re doing.

Donald: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Janet: Great. Thank you.

(Music / Outro)

Janet:  As a designer, I find what Donald, and Michael Graves Design, are creating to be so exciting. It ticks off so many of the ‘doing good’ boxes for me.

While I recognize it’s not for all of us now, the more this furniture becomes a reality, the quicker it becomes the norm in our homes, or in assisted living homes. The baby boomers will immediately recognize the need… and thoughtful, beautiful design can really make a difference.

Carolyn: As Donald said, “it’s not always sexy stuff” (Janet: chuckles), but it is addressing real-world problems and issues. (Janet: yes). With their Pottery Barn collaboration, they believe they are providing the next level of comfort, style, and value for people’s lives.

Janet: I love their innovative changes to bedroom furniture. And it’s all been vetted, tested, and designed with input from consumers of all types of disabilities. Like the nightstand that accommodates a CPAP machine; or handles instead of the knobs to help arthritis sufferers; or addressing the use of appropriate wheelchair heights. Even the simplest of additions… you know all of us lip balm peeps can appreciate that rim that stops that sucker from rolling off the nightstand. (chuckles).

Carolyn: Well said! … or the addition of ‘grab channels’ for— my new favorite term— furniture surfing.

Janet: (chuckle). We all do it. And all joking aside, it’s a great built-in feature to help people get around the room.

Carolyn: Yes, it is. And it does sound like Michael Graves Design has even newer plans for some really helpful gadgets and inventions, he couldn’t quite talk about yet.

Janet: I’m so curious about that too. We definitely have to have him come back when he can talk about those.

Carolyn: Oh yes, we will. Meanwhile, if you want to get more info, or see pictures, of the products mentioned in today’s episode, you can find it on our website.

Janet: Absolutely! And we will also provide links to many of the other things touched on during this discussion… all on our website at: Inclusive-Designers-dot-com.

Carolyn: That’s: Inclusive-Designers-dot-com…

Janet: A big thank you to Donald Strum of Michael Graves Design, and again, to all of you for listening.

Carolyn: Along with all the regular places you get your podcasts— such as Apple, Google, Spotify, and Pandora— you can also find us on YouTube as… and yes, you guessed it again, Inclusive Designers Podcast.

And of course, if you like what you hear, feel free to go to our website and hit that Patreon Button.

Janet: Yes, please do. And a quick shout out to Missy Frederick for letting us know about this important topic. And let us know if you have any questions or suggestions for topics we should be covering in upcoming shows! We’ll give you a shout out too.

As our motto says: ’Stay Well…and Stay Well Informed!’

As always, thank you for stopping by.

Carolyn: Wait, has anybody seen my lip balm? … (Janet: oh dear, laughs).

Oh well, I’m sure it’ll turn up by next time. Meanwhile…

Janet: We’ll see you next time. (laughs)

Carolyn: And yes, thanks again!

(Music up and fade out)