An Award-Winning TiD Tool for Designing Schools (Season 5, Episode 1)

Inclusive Designers Podcast
An Award-Winning TiD Tool for Designing Schools (Season 5, Episode 1)

By: Janet Roche & Carolyn Robbins

  • Hosted By: Janet Roche
  • Edited by: Jessica Hunt
  • Guests: J. Davis Harte, Christine Cowart, Molly Pierce

Inclusive Designers Podcast presents…
The Trauma-informed Design Society’s  TiDEvalK12:
An Award-Winning TiD Tool for Designing Schools (Season 5, Episode 1)

What is the Trauma-informed Design Society’s award-winning  TiDEvalK12 Tool and how can it be used to help designers and educators identify ways to make positive changes within their schools?

In this episode, IDP explores just what trauma is, and how it can affect the built environment in schools, and beyond. You’ll meet the team that created this thought-provoking tool that can bridge the gap of language and understanding to ultimately reduce stress through the built environment.

Focusing on 12 key domains, the tool can be used to evaluate schools and identify changes in the physical environment that can lower the stress levels of students and staff. It also assists designers in making pointed recommendations and helps administrators better understand the reasons these can be beneficial to their spaces.


Davis Harte, PhD, WELL AP

Other IDP Episodes:

Trauma-informed Educational Design in a Post-Pandemic Environment

Designing for: Trauma-Informed Design

Christine Cowart-Trauma-informed Design Consutant

Other IDP Episode:

Trauma-informed Design: Transforming Correctional Design for Justice

Molly Pierce- Occuaptional Therapist

– References: 


An Award-Winning TiD Tool for Designing Schools (Season 5, Episode 1)

Panel: Janet Roche, J. Davis Harte, Christine Cowart, Molly Pierce

(Music / Open)

Janet: In this series we will be discussing specific examples of design techniques that make a positive difference for people living with certain human conditions.

Carolyn: The more a designer understands the client and or the community the more effective and respectful the design will be.

(Music / Intro)

Janet: Welcome everyone, we have a very special show for you today. I am very excited to be not only hosting this episode, but also participating, as I was one of the researchers. With a great team that you’ll meet shortly, we created the Trauma-informed Design Evaluation tool for Kindergarten thru 12th grade. Otherwise known as the EDRA CORE award-winning TiDEvalk12 tool— if I might toot my own horn.

Carolyn: In my opinion, there’s no need to be humble, this one is definitely worthy of one or two toots of your own .

Janet: I really appreciate that Carolyn. This was a lot of hard work, and we’re getting a lot of really great feedback and it’s being explored literally around the world. So we’re very excited about it, so yes, ‘toot-toot’ for us.

Carolyn: Maybe explain the title…

Janet: I can do that, well, it’s TID- Trauma-informed Design; eval- because it’s an evaluation tool; and it’s for K through 12… so, TID-Eval-K-12 tool.

Carolyn: We’ll talk about the tool shortly, but Janet, before we get into your interview with the team… why don’t you start by telling us a little about Trauma-Informed Design, and how it led to form the Trauma Informed Design society.

Janet: Happy to… first, Trauma-informed Design, or TiD, is about integrating principles of trauma-informed care, as originally established by, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (or SAMHSA) and continually evolving into design. The goal is to create physical spaces that promote safety, well-being, and healing. This requires realizing how the physical environment affects identity, worth, and dignity, and how it promotes empowerment.

The Trauma-informed Design Society was started in early 2018 and is co-founded by myself, along with Davis Harte and Christine Cowart. Our panel today includes Davis Harte, or as we like to call her around here Dr. Harte, who like me is an inclusive design professional, and you might recognize her from other IDP episodes.

Christine Cowart is our in-house Trauma-informed Care professional, who has also joined us for past episodes. Also joining us today is Molly Pierce, who was on board as our Occupational Therapy specialist. All of their LinkedIn profiles are available on our website at:

Carolyn:  And I’ll jump back in here to say: This assessment tool was created through research performed by the Trauma-informed Design Society, with assistance from over 100 participating educators and designers. It is intended to be used to evaluate schools and identify changes in the physical environment that can lower the stress levels of students and staff.

It is grounded in SAMHSA’s guidance for a trauma-informed approach, and the Trauma-informed Design Society’s framework. And we should also mention that this project was supported by American Society of Interior Designers, Foundation Research Grant.

Janet: And with that, I think it’s time to let everyone hear from the team about just what the tool is, and how it is already helping in the design of K through 12 schools.

Carolyn: Yes, I agree. And so here is our episode with Janet, Davis, Christine, and Molly… the force behind this award-winning evaluation tool.

(Music / Interview)

Janet: Hello and welcome to ‘Inclusive Designers Podcast’. We’ve got a great show for you today. We are going to be talking to my teammates for the Trauma-informed Design Evaluation Tool. The grant we got, which was through ASID, the American Society of Interior Designers Foundation. And we will go and talk a lot about what is trauma, what is trauma informed design, and what was the tool and some of the things that we did to create the tool and how we see the future of Trauma-informed Design.

So, without any further ado, I’m going to go around the room, and we will start with, well, I’ll start with myself. How about that? I’m not only going to be the host today, but I am also going to be a participant as I was one of the Trauma-informed Design professionals assigned for this particular evaluation tool.

Oh, and I’m here in Boston and I am in my office, so if you hear any background noise, occasionally we try to block it out, but you know, some, it’s not a perfect world, but here we are. With that, I’m going to introduce J. Davis Harte, or as we know her around here as Dr. Harte. So Dr. Harte, would you please introduce yourself?

Davis: Hello everybody. I am J. Davis Harte. I’m known as Davis, and I am happy to come to you today from Oregon in my office. I am the principal investigator for the Trauma-Informed Design K-12 Evaluation Tool. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Janet: Great, thank you Davis. Next up we’ve got Christine Cowart.

Christine: Hi, my name is Christine Cowart. My pronouns are she/her. I was the Trauma-informed Care consultant on the tool, and I’m happy to be here.

Janet: Great. Thanks Christine. Christine’s coming from the great state of Vermont.

Christine: I am indeed. I’m here in my office in Vermont, and if you hear anything, it’s likely to be cows. (laughs).

Janet: Thank you so much Christine for being here. Next up we have Molly Pierce. Hi Molly.

Molly: Hi, yes, I’m Molly Pierce, and I come to you from Oregon, and I come to this team with an extensive background as an Occupational Therapist. So I am just really happy to be here and be a part of this team and this podcast. So thank you.

Janet: Thank you, Molly. So let’s jump right on in. We’ve got a lot to cover today. Obviously, everybody can jump in at any point in time. Christine, we’ll start with you. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about what is trauma and why it is so important for designers to understand.

Christine: Sure. So, when we’re talking about trauma, I like to operate under the definition that is pretty much well understood and perpetuated by the Substance Abuse Mental Health Services Administration. And the way they define trauma… “It’s an event that happens to an individual, that that individual experiences as life-threatening or harmful to their well-being that has lasting negative impact.” And so when you think about that definition, it’s much broader than what we sometimes think of as trauma. It really encompasses a whole lot.

And that definition is grounded in how the person experiences that event. So we can’t come up with a list of things and say, these are traumatic things because it’s about how it impacts that person. (Janet: yeah). And so what we know is from surveys and other studies that have been done that the majority of our population has experienced at least one traumatic event in their lifetime.

Why this is important to know is because when you experience more traumatic events over the course of your life, your long-term impacts can increase. (Janet: mm-hmm). And so what they found is, it has impacts on your health, on your likelihood to have chronic disease (Janet: hmm), and on your ability to make good choices. Really access your full ability to think logically and rationally about situations. Control your reactions to situations, and it impacts your ability to access life opportunities. (Janet: yeah).

So why this is important in design is because what we understand about trauma is that it is really— a person experiences something as traumatic when their stress levels are very high. (Janet: mm-hmm).

And so, we know that the physical environment can shape how a person feels when they’re in that environment. It can impact a person’s stress levels, and if we can lower those stress levels for the individual while they’re in a space, we are eliminating some of the potential things that might be leading to them being re-traumatized or triggered in that environment. (Janet: right).

Janet: So thank you so much, Christine, for that brief overview and why it’s so important for designers to understand what trauma is and not to just kind of brush it off. Davis, do you want to add to that? Is there something that you think is important for our listeners to understand about trauma and what trauma is and why it’s so important?

Davis: Thank you so much Janet, and Christine covers our foundation of this work so, so well, (Janet: she covers a lot). I adore how well she explains it because it is a very complex and nuanced process. And we want to highlight the point about how much trauma might affect somebody’s health long term. And I am the Design for Human Health Director and faculty member, so this topic is near and dear to my heart.

And I just want to spotlight a bit more the influence of traumatic experiences, especially in childhood, on the lifetime of the individual. So the impacts that it can have on folks can be something that stays with them, whereas also they can heal and there can be an opportunity for transformation. And it’s a living organism in my mind. You know, if a person experiences trauma, they may become in a pattern of harm and poor life choices and, and sickness.

And in that same regard, there is a real opportunity with sufficient resources and social support and the built environment to facilitate healing. So people can heal, people can change, and they can come out of the other side of a traumatic experience with new insights and resilience. So it’s just one of those, let’s not make it black and white, it’s much more colorful than that, and a hopeful topic. Although it seems like it’s counter to that. Right.

Janet: Yeah. Thank you, it’s all good and important points. Molly, did you want to jump in here and talk about the experience that you have, and you come at it from an OT perspective, do you want to add something?

Molly: Yeah, sure. Just, it is super complex, and every individual is unique, and they come with their unique circumstances. And currently I do work in schools. so kind of being in the trenches, living that lived experience of watching students and teachers stress levels. I was just thinking of this, this morning, that what is it about design and trauma?

And if you think of the body as a whole, the design piece of the school building is the skeleton. (Janet: hmm) And I think that’s, we have such an incredible opportunity to bridge Trauma-informed Care to inform design, and it’s really bringing in that common understanding and bringing everyone to that table, (Janet: Right), because it is complex.

Janet: It’s a really good point, Molly. Absolutely. And it is complex. In Trauma-informed Design, we talk a lot about understanding the individuals using the spaces and designers like to think that that is part of their programming, but really understanding what trauma is, and then with the lens of Trauma-informed Design and understanding each of the individuals in those particular spaces is so important.

Molly:  Yeah, I just, it was funny, before I came to the podcast this morning, I was actually in a school-wide, welcome back to school. (Janet: oh boy). And the director, actually, she was the Chief of Staff for the Oregon Department of Education, so state level (Janet: wow), came to speak to our school district and I wrote down a quote she said, and I wanted to share that because it just is so beautiful with the work that we’re trying to do.

She said: “Schools are sanctuaries where students feel safe, have a sense of belonging.” (Janet: right). And I think that is, that is exactly what we’re doing through Trauma-informed Care and Trauma-informed Design, is building that bridge so that we do create those school buildings that really are sanctuaries for our students and our staff to decrease those trauma stress levels.

Janet: Right. Thank you so much, Molly. You teed us up a little bit for the next section of what we would like to talk about and that is, that this particular episode of Inclusive Designers is really going to be about the tool, which is for K-through-12. It’s about schools, and trying to reduce those stress levels in schools. And how designers can help make that happen for, not only just students, but also for faculty and additional educators, or people in the education field.

So with that, we want to start talking a little bit more about the tool and what was the impetus for the tool. I know a lot of the answers, but I’m not going to keep talking the entire time. I know, I did one of my favorite things I like to do to any team is like, “Hey, I have an idea.” And the idea in this case was again, the American Society of Interior Designers Foundation was putting out this grant. And I thought we might be able to start moving the needle within Trauma-informed Design with the K-through-12 schools and creating this particular type of tool.

Davis, do you want to jump in and… (Davis: sure). you know, Christine, you can jump– both of you can jump in at any point in time, because I definitely came to the two of you, and I was like, we should do this.

Christine: I do want to jump in because this conversation reminds me of when you first approached me. You did exactly as you said. You came to me, and you said, “I have an idea.” (Janet: laughs).

And I’ll never forget, it was one of the hottest days of the year, and I was lucky enough to be in my pool on the phone with you. And I sat there, and I said, “okay, but I don’t understand what you’re telling me.” And you just kept saying, “well, there’s a grant and we should go for the grant.” And I said, “great, but what’s the idea?” And you kept saying, “we could do something for schools.” I said, “okay, but what?” And we keep mentioning the tool and I just, I feel like we might want to take a step back and tell people what we’re, what is this tool that we’re talking about.

Janet: I totally agree with you. Go ahead Christine. Knock it out of the park.

Christine: Well, I’ll do my best. (Janet: okay). So what we created was an actual tool that schools and designers can use, independently and together, to evaluate the physical structure of their school and their environment, both interior and exterior.

To identify changes that they could make or should make if they want to be able to reduce stress levels of the people who are in that school– so that’s student, staff, visitors. And really kind of give them a rating, like these are areas you should really pay attention to because they might be having an adverse effect on the people who are in your school.

And we embedded within that tool some explanation of different terms that we use and things like that, so that they can understand why we’re making certain recommendations. (Janet: right). And it can help them have conversations that were previously, possibly more challenging, because designers speak one language and educators speak seemingly another from time to time. (Janet: right, laughs). And we’re trying to give them the ability to make sure that they’re not talking past one another, but they’re talking in a way that they’re all on the same page.

Janet: Yeah, and you’re absolutely correct. And I think one of the things that made the tool so successful was the fact that it is a way to bridge the gap between designers and educators so that they’re speaking the same language.

I always find that there are educators who depend on the designers to tell them almost what they want, and designers think to themselves, “well, I know what you need.” And instead of actually having a complete conversation. So it’s a really important point. And yes, Molly, what would you like to say?

Molly: Well, I just wanted to add to that, that what’s really kind of our thought process was building that bridge between the designers who really understand spatial and interior design, exterior design, (Janet: right), with the educator who truly understands how the space is used, (Janet: correct), how students use it, how they use it, what is working and what’s not working.

But then also the administrators who now are the ones that are writing the checks who are really like, we do need a new school. So it’s bringing each of those voices to the table and it’s creating that unity rather than everybody in silos, it’s an opportunity, using the assessment tool as a way to really start having conversations about how do we really truly design and build a school that is Trauma-informed and is looking at all aspects, whether it’s an elementary school, a middle school, or a high school.

Janet: So I don’t know if Davis, do you want to kind of go and start talking a little bit about the impetus for the tool.

Davis: Sure! (Janet: Yeah). Well, there were so many seeds planted for this work before we penned the grant application. (Janet: oh my goodness), there’s so, so much background.

Janet: Well you, Christine, and I have been at this for a very long time. (Davis: yes, absolutely). Right, and so, that’s very much worth mentioning.

Davis: So the question is, you know, at what point did we say, ‘oh, it should be a tool for schools’ or even before, you know, how do we set it? There’s so much lead in time. some of the applied work that we did at the BAC with the middle school that we worked on, I feel like is a real solid seed that was planted (Janet: absolutely), yeah.

Janet: You and I both were working on that particular school in Dorchester, and that really started me down a path of really, I was just so annoyed. And I know it’s a poor section, but and it just bothered me how poorly the school was set up in terms of design.

Davis: Yeah, we just saw that when we toured the school and we got to know the staff, we didn’t have access to work directly with the kids at the time, (Janet: correct), but we saw ways to make design recommendations, but the ones that they did implement actually had a positive effect on those kids’ lives when they needed a moment to recognize that they were in a state of stress and they couldn’t learn and they should go see a counselor in a separate room, that they had a place to go, that they felt welcome, they felt safe, they could relax a little bit, they could, have an outlet to discharge their emotions and then they could return to class.

So that’s, for me, one of the most important origin stories for the TiD. We call it the TiD-Eval-K12 (Janet: mm-hmm). The Trauma-informed Design Evaluation Tool for K through 12. So when we were alerted that ASID Foundation had grants coming up. Yeah. Janet. I mean, you know, it was a bunch of ideas, (Janet: right), this tidal wave of need and (Janet: and passion), passion and what we love to do, and ‘hey, let’s do it.

It’s going to be, it’s, you know, all of it, all of the energy of ‘well, we have a way to help make some bridges here’. So, you know, I’m, I’m just thrilled with how well it’s been received (Janet: yeah), and how much more momentum it’s generating just by existing in the world at this point. And I know Christine’s eager with her passion and righteousness as well. (laughs).

Janet: I know. Well, this is where it does get very passionate. So my, my apologies in advance if we get a little raucous.

Davis: And I can jump in too with a little quick story of when I went to present on the tool at the EDRA Conference in Mexico City this past June. EDRA, which is the Environmental Design Research Association.

So, I was lucky enough to have my teenage daughter with me. And she, at the end of the talk said, “mom, all this time that you’ve been working on the tool,” and she’s sort of doing the shrug of the shoulders, “like, I didn’t really know what that meant, but now I can see that it’s just a bunch of papers, like a couple of papers and some questions” –  you know, she had this light bulb moment of, “oh, it’s, it’s accessible.”

And that was our point when we developed it, we wanted it to be accessible. (Janet: yes). People can have this PDF, 10 pages, something like that, with nice explanations. It simplifies things. In my mind, it’s a little bit of a shortcut to the conversation, but it’s also gives the room for really in-depth and nuanced conversations that really need to happen.

And along those lines, one of the audience members at this talk asked about, you know, have we validated it and checked it, and so forth. And that’s really important for design research (Janet: correct), and for research generally. (Janet: right).

But we really spent a lot of time when we were developing, saying every single school has its own personality (Janet: right). Right. Its own culture, (Janet: its own culture), its own geographic location, (Janet: right), its own history as a town. So we wanted to have the ribs of the work very clear, defining it with a lot of room for personalization by each set of folks working with it.

Janet: Yeah, and I just wanted to let our listeners know a couple of things, that when you went to EDRA, you picked up a CORE Award for the research that we did on this. So, CORE Award is ‘Certification of Research Excellence’ through EDRA. And both Christine and I have just gotten back from Los Angeles where we talked at ASID’s ‘Gather’. And we had a 90-minute conversation of not only about the tool, but the process that we went through to put the tool together.

And then just to let our listeners know that on the IDP— otherwise known as Inclusive Designers Podcast— website, “” we will have links to a lot of this, the tool obviously, as well as a whole bunch of other information that gets brought up on this episode,

And then I wanted to also add to Davis’s point about the personalities, and as Molly had pointed out earlier, that it’s very kind of complex and that people are very diverse. But we have just found out that the tool will be used for the Uvalde Rob Elementary rebuild in Texas. And we could not be more humbled nor thrilled that they are using our tool in order to inform the new design building. So, yes, Molly, Molly’s like, “Yay!” And it is a ‘Yay!’ moment for sure. It’s a big deal. Christine, do you have something to add to that?

Christine: It just struck me because we knew that the tool was introduced to that community and that they had some conversations about it. But to have the community that is, you know, in the process of fundraising for the new school, to actually call it out and say, independently of the architect or us, to publicly say that this tool was helpful. (Janet: yeah).

It just really, really blew me away because it felt like what we wanted to come of this, which was a way to help the students who need it most, right? And to help the people who are most affected. (Janet: right). What better way to be able to help than to know that this tool was found useful by that community in particular. So it really, I, I’m getting ‘fer klempt’, I don’t know if you can hear it in my speech…

Janet: I was just going to say, I’m getting, I’m getting a little like, Yeah, it’s, it’s one of those things where we can get a little emotional over it and {we know that the main architectural firm there Huckabee, they’ve been putting in an incredible amount of work for the project itself.

And I know it was very emotional for them as well and obviously for the community.} And if we can just even play a small part in helping to heal that community, I couldn’t be more proud, and I know the rest of the team is as well. (Davis: yeah).

Is there anything else that we want to talk about the actual tool itself, you know, that was more of an overview. Do we want to maybe get into more of some of the nuances about the tool? So Davis, maybe you could tell us a little bit about how we started to design the tool, how did we go about that, besides the tremendous amount of hours. So we’ve gotten the grant. Now what?

Davis: Right. Exactly.

Janet: I remember thinking to myself, “yay, we got a grant. Like somebody wants to give us money for this research”. It was fabulous. And then, all of a sudden, I was like, oh my gosh, now what, what do we do? (Laughs).

Davis: Yeah, yeah. And so we knew kind of a ballpark vision we were aiming towards was, okay, make it accessible and have it be, all sets of people can understand it. (Janet: right). So I think in our minds eye, we had some domains that we were aiming towards, (Janet: yes), but we also knew it needed to be based on solid evidence, (Janet: right), and evidence that is wide reaching.

So I think the way we boiled it down was let’s get a better understanding of all of the frameworks that already are in existence for doing spatial evaluations (Janet: correct). And secondly, all of the frameworks and research that’s been done on Trauma-informed Care. (Janet: right).

And then we synthesized and sifted and merged those together. And then, that was kind of the theoretical foundation of it all, but I’m going to pass it over to one of my teammates to go on more, because there were many steps involved in getting us to our final results.

Janet: Right. But that was just in itself a very arduous process, if that’s my memory of it. I know that Christine and I spent an incredible amount of time. We already talked a little bit about SAMHSA, right? We started really kind of doing a lot of the empirical research that we wanted to do. I kept saying, I just want a very, very solid foundation, because our thinking was that as Trauma-informed Design Society, that we would be very capable at that point with that solid foundation to be able to start working with other communities and creating these other tools.

So, I know, Christine, please feel free to jump in because you and I, you know, it’s sort of where we started to really bond, our late-night hours, and going through hours of empirical research, and like I said, SAMHSA which we mentioned earlier. Go ahead.

Christine: That’s where I was going to jump in. It was really important to me that whatever we came up with fit well within this SAMHSA’s six key principles of a Trauma-informed Approach, because, you know they’ve been doing this work for nigh on 20 years trying to figure out the best way to work with people who’ve experienced .

And what they’ve come up with are that there are 6 key things that you need to weave into your approach. And they’re now just starting to recognize that some of that is literally the built environment. (Janet: yeah). So their 6 key principles are ‘safety’, ‘trustworthiness and transparency’, ‘peer support’, ‘collaboration mutuality’ and ‘empowerment, voice and choice’, all as one.

And then the final one we refer to as ‘having an equity lens’. They developed this before that language was common, and what they called it was ‘cultural, historical, and gender awareness.’ (Janet: right). And so what we literally did is we went through every single design framework that we found and every single, Trauma-informed Assessment for organizations (Janet: tools) And we mapped it to those 6 key principles. And we mapped it to our understanding of what a Trauma-informed Design approach would look like. And then we cross-referenced everything. (Molly: yeah), Molly, go right ahead.

Molly: Yeah, I just want to jump in, because while that was going on, at the same time, there’s a group of us looking at what are those design frames of references? What are those design tools, assessments that are out there? And there really weren’t a lot. So what we did, and then thinking about design terms and actually thinking of schools, that’s then how we kind of came together to look at, trying to figure out what those domains are and creating surveys that we could really understand when we go to talk to schools, their understanding of Trauma-informed Care. (Janet: Right).

And then maybe also those places in a school building that might’ve trigger— I hate to use the word trigger— or cause or increase stress levels, dysregulate students and teachers. So, I just wanted to add on to what Christine said.

Janet: Yeah, we were, and Davis feel free to also to jump in. There was a lot going on at that particular point in time as we were bringing together the tool, which also included getting schools involved. And now you got to remember, so some of these schools that we tried to get involved, they were happy to do it. I should add, they were wonderful. But they’re all trying to deal with the end of the pandemic or the end as we kind of knew it pandemic, and then, getting kids back into the classroom.

And we were up against a time limit, right? So, you know, here was the end of school and now they’re trying to figure out how to get these kids out of school, but also keep them safe from the last part of the big part of the pandemic. And then also trying very hard not to have their own nervous breakdowns about everything. And now we’re like, “Hey, we need a whole bunch of information from you.” So they were really terrific in giving us the information, which really included just a whole bunch of photos. Right? And then at some point we did have them talk to us about the photos and their floor plans that they provided for us. Right, is there anything else that I’m missing?

Christine: Yeah. Molly hit on it. We issued surveys that were two-fold. One was around their care practices. The other one was around the physical design of their school. (Janet: that’s right). And we anticipated and asked specific questions about certain areas of the school, (Janet: right), that we thought kids might be most dis-regulated in (Janet: dis-regulated, yeah).

And what we found out was, we were right about some of them, but there were others that came up to the surface. (Janet: yeah), So it was interesting because those survey results served as the basis for those conversations with the school to get to the bottom of, “well, why are you seeing this here?” and “why are you not seeing it where we thought you might.”

Janet: Right. And with that list, we also added entrances, we thought entrances were really important. It’s like the first portal that you walk through. And it’s also the like, first impressions, right? Does anybody want to add to that? (Davis: yeah). Go ahead.

Davis: That’s exactly right because, a lot of the times when design doesn’t work, people recognize that, and say, “oh man, this doesn’t work.” But a lot of times also just through environmental psychology understanding, they just become acclimatized to it, and they get used to it. And they’re not necessarily going to point it out and say, “oh, this is an issue.”

So this is why design research is so important because we can help make those connections for people (Janet: right), between what they’re experiencing subconsciously at, you know, less than a second, impressions are made. The symbolic communication that occurs from the spaces that we go into can really set the tone for the rest of the experience. (Janet: right). So that’s why we added entrances.

Janet: Yeah. For the listeners, you don’t realize we’re all nodding. And we also want to add, I’m just going to throw that out there as one of the co-founders of Trauma-informed Design Society, if you want to give us money for additional research, we’re always open for that as well. (laughs). So moving along…

Molly: Well I can jump in…

Janet: yeah, go ahead Molly.

Molly: Yeah, just the next phase after that before we even got to developing the assessment tool is, then we collected all this information from the schools, from the staff, the people involved, all the research.

Janet: And I just want to add that we also had an ‘IRB’ as well in place, which is an ‘Institutional Review Board’ approval for the work that we did. This wasn’t just us kind of going out there. We really wanted to make sure that this was a strong foundation that we were going to be researching. So we got an IRB because the research was really important to us and to make sure that it was done properly and well examined. Go ahead Molly.

Molly: Yeah, and now we created a visual because the next phase was to pull in our designers, (Janet: right). So, Christine can talk about this because she really helped develop those pictures and organizing them. And we created them, and we identified the spaces in the school and then we had photos from each school. Christine, you can talk a little more…

Christine: Yeah Molly, so one thing that we were faced with, and kind of outside of our control, was that we entered into this project not realizing that we would be trying to do essentially design assessments of these buildings in the middle of a pandemic when we couldn’t actually physically visit the buildings. (Janet: right). So we…

Janet:  … it was a little oversight on our part (both laugh).

Christine: The schools were just phenomenal. (Janet: they were). They really, they played ball. (Janet: they did). I mean, we had them scour and go into every nook and cranny of their school and take photographic evidence that we then had a massive amount of information from these schools as if we had been there ourselves. (Janet: right). And we realized that we wanted architectural input from people who are actively engaged in design work and familiar with the principles of Trauma-informed Design (Janet: right). And we needed to do this all remotely. And I don’t know who came up with the idea of Miro boards. (Janet: right, that was Molly?) Was it you, Molly?

Molly: Yeah. I think I really, because being an Occupational Therapist, I am such a visual person. I’m kind of this multi-sensory learner and I just realized— I did some coursework at University of Oregon with their Architectural program in Human Design— and architects are really good at using spatial tools. And so I learned a lot, and we weren’t familiar with it. We did have some support of a Boston Architectural student who also was familiar and had some background in Interior Design. And so she was able to say, “oh, well I’ve used this tool, this tool, this tool.” And then that’s kind of how it evolved.

Davis: Yeah, I heard your guy’s idea for let’s do this visually. And I thought, ‘oh, how about Miro board?” so…

Molly: …there you go. That’s it Davis.

Davis: Yeah. pull together the pieces. it’s a great tool (Janet: yeah) Yep.

Christine: So for anyone who’s not familiar, it’s essentially a platform, like a huge whiteboard on the computer that you can stick pictures on and put stickies. (Janet: right). And so it was like having a virtual working space that we could all share. (Janet: right). And what we did is put together a template for each area that we were looking at.

Janet: So we’ve got areas like, entrances as we talked about, hallways, gymnasiums, cafeterias, classrooms, (Molly: bathrooms), bathrooms, (Christine: outdoor spaces), and outdoor spaces. I think that that was pretty much it, right? (yeah).

Christine: And so we had a template for each area, and each school had their own portion of the board all de-identified. And then we had a selection of architects and designers who were going to review these photos for us and provide us feedback. And so each one of them needed their own board.

Janet: Right, Christine, I don’t mean to interrupt, but here I am. So what is I think is important to recognize… one of the things is that we asked those designers because we felt like they understood what trauma is. And we had some idea that they understood what we were looking for and asking for that particular help, that that was an important piece. And, and we got a lot of designers to help us sift through all of this tons of information.

Christine: Yes, absolutely. I did want to put in a plug here though, for the fact that I don’t know that we ever would’ve gotten those boards ready in the timeline we had, if it wasn’t for the help of our friends at Huckabee who stepped in and said, “You know what? We will help you put these boards together” because each one of them needed their own copy of a board. (Janet: yeah). “We will help you put these together and we will step out of the assessment piece, but we’ll help you also when you get all the results, sort through it.”

So, we were so lucky to have their assistance. (Janet: absolutely). And the boards, I would say magically appeared, (laughs). (Janet: they did!). But I know that was a lot of work that was put in. (Janet: right). And what we asked for was the architects and designers to give us up to 3 ideas for each area that might be helpful to lowering student stress levels; 3 things that might be harmful, and any other suggestions or questions that they might have.

Janet: Right, it was helps; hurts; and questions or comments. I think that that was how we put it together. (Molly: yeah). Right.

Christine: And then all of that information from each of those participants got entered into a spreadsheet and we looked for common themes.

Janet: Right. Yeah. And that, like you said, that was a bit of a bear. So to comb through and then also look for those common themes on those Miro boards and then put it all together. Then at that point, we started to create the tool. So, Molly, did you want to talk about the different domains? You want to kick that off?

Molly: Yeah sure. So then the process from taking all that information, so we have spreadsheets and oodles and oodles and oodles of information. And the first part of it was really to define the domains and bridging Trauma-informed Care with design.

And then I think a big important piece that we all agreed on was developing vocabulary. (Janet: right). So not just what the domains are, but really defining what that domain is, to have clear language that now we’re building that bridge through a common language to be able for designers in school and administrators or whoever uses this tool. They can take that, understand what we’re talking about, and come together and understand it together. So with that being said, the domains we came up with, and I’m just going to kind of list them…

Janet: You should rattle them off, right? People could still go to, it will be at the top, the link for the tool. So go ahead Molly. Thank you.

Molly: Okay, so: “safety, accessibility, biophilia and connection to nature, inclusion, wayfinding, visibility, comfort and aesthetics, lighting, choice and flexibility, acoustics, community and culture, and movement and play.”

Janet: Molly, can you give us an example of one of the questions in one of the domains? (Molly: okay). Let’s go with safety. What are a couple of examples under that particular domain?

Molly: Okay, yes. Well, I kind of just want to read it just to give context then to the questions. (Janet: sure). So safety, “the domain of safety is the highest priority in implementing a Trauma-informed Approach and is typically measured by how students and staff fill within the space. That’s just the first sentence. (Janet: perfect).

A typical question. The first question is: “is there adequate lighting in the parking lot? Are there lights along paths and entrances of the school? Are there security cameras? Does your school have ample storage?”

So what it was is, we took from the information from designers, from teachers, from what safety is, and maybe lighting— we need visibility, we need to see and feel safe as we go into a space, especially at night. So the questions are kind of all developing, whoever’s filling it out to really start thinking about these different areas and how safety could be a piece of that.

Janet: Davis? Do you have anything to add? (Christine: I just wanted…) Go ahead, Christine.

Christine: I just wanted to pipe up and say, and when we’re thinking of safety, it’s important to know that we’re talking about emotional and physical safety. (Janet: yes). So there’ll be questions in there that you might not think are relative to a safe building, but this is more than just the building. It’s how the building makes a person feel. (Janet: correct).

So that could be things like: are there places where you could have private conversations, which you wouldn’t really think of that as safety, but that would be something that we would think of safety under this approach.

Davis: Right. That’s exactly what I was going to add, so well done.

Christine: Oh, sorry Davis, (laughs).

Davis: I’m happy for you to describe and give a good example of what that would look like. Absolutely. I mean, yes, we might think of safety as well, “Let’s have lots of walls and barriers and, and metal detectors and ways to help people feel like they’re psychologically safe when perhaps actually that’s counter (Janet: counterproductive), to having, “look, we know each other, we belong, we’re welcome here, we’re safe to see each other and to know what’s going on, who is expected here and why, you know, if there’s a stranger coming in.

Then those ‘eyes on the street’— that’s the design terminology that shows that being familiar with and caring about your work and caring about coming to your place and having a sense of place. You know, “this is my place. I’m proud of coming here. I like coming here.” That’s deep, deep safety from my point of view and I think from the teams as well. (Janet: yeah).

Christine: I love that you brought up the cameras.

Janet: I was just going to say, I was like, can we talk about the cameras.

Christine: (laughs)

Janet: I was thinking in my head, I’m like, ‘oh, should I bring up the cameras?’ because Christine, we’ve had this conversation quite a bit. Alright. Just as a background, I come from Brooklyn, New York. So for me, a well-lit area with cameras and stuff is not a bad thing. Like you feel like there’s some sort of sense of security knowing that they’re there. But Christine, take it away.

Christine: Yeah, I have a very different feeling. Cameras make me feel like I’m in a place that might not be safe. My experience is built on the fact that I mostly encounter cameras in environments where they’re used for surveillance. You know, I work in prisons, so that’s one example. I also have traveled to countries where it was used to surveil their population.

And so for me, cameras make me feel unsafe. And so we included it in the tool, and we actually had this question when we were presenting in LA at the Gather Conference. If you look at it, it’s on there, but it doesn’t matter if you answer yes or no. The score is a zero because we just want to have that conversation. (Janet: yeah).

Molly: And I, I love that you said to have that conversation, Christine, because I think that’s what’s so important to understand. Everyone coming to the table brings their own perception. (Janet: right). And so what triggers you or what brings up your stress may not with me, but it’s because of our childhood experiences or it’s because of those adverse responses and situations that we have. We come uniquely to that, and that’s what I hope that this tool does, is that it really, it’s an assessment. It’s just assessing, it’s bringing that conversation to the table, so we talk about it before the design of it starts. What are those areas.

And I think teachers, I mean, I’m putting a plug to advocate for teachers and staff because what I’m seeing, being in the experience of brand-new buildings, they’re beautiful. (Janet: right). But they continually don’t meet the needs of teachers and students. And so we continue to have adverse responses to environments. (Janet: right). And what I’m noticing is now in, well, at least in Oregon, it feels cookie cutter. The schools are still these cookie cutter structures, and that’s where Trauma-informed Design can create…

Janet: …can make a difference.

Molly: Can make a huge difference. (Janet: right). And meet elementary kids where they are and you know, they’re not all the same. (Janet: right). So, I just wanted to just say ‘yes, okay’… that about the cameras or any of these other questions, you might be wondering why is that on there? Well, it’s on there because we need to bring those conversations to the table.

Janet: Correct. Yeah.

Christine: Molly, I’d love to highlight something that you said, because you said it and then moved on, but it’s so important that these conversations should happen before design.

Janet: And that’s a really good point. Right.

Christine: … because so often we get brought in after, (Janet: after), right after the plans are already set. And now they’re trying to see, “oh, is it just, you know, colors or finishes or the furnishing we’ve put in?” (Janet: right). And we keep saying “no, it’s so much deeper than that, there’s so many things about the actual design that can be impactful.” So it needs to be at the front end. (J: absolutely).

Davis: And along those same lines, if we think about this with various scales. So for example, my sister-in-law just became a third-grade teacher. And she has intuitive ideas of how she wants to set up her classroom, right? But when we were together and I said, “let’s take a look at this tool I just worked on, it’s got a lot of things you might want to know about. (Janet: right).

So it validates the ideas that she already had and gives her justification for spending the time she wanted to spend to go into her single classroom. She’s not in the position to change her entire school, but yet she can change her own space in her own classroom for her students in a way that when they first walk in, they can feel respect and calm, and they are ready to, you know, be greeted and have a good learning experience for the year. (Janet: right).

So it’s, you know, looking at it from various scales I think helps people understand who this is for and how they can just pick it up and start with where they’re at, right? And build it from there if there’s momentum and capacity, and sure, let’s spread this to the entire district. Right? And you know, beyond, as we’ve seen now with people interested outside of elementary and high So, yeah, there’s that.

Janet: Yeah. (Davis: laughs). Yeah. Davis, you totally teed us up for the, the next part. And where are we going with this? Like we know that, like I said, creating that strong foundation, we can start applying that to other communities, other marginalized communities, and other types of social services. And we even see it as well as for aging populations as well as within the home, within offices. I mean, we see Trauma-informed Design applications for just about anything a designer could possibly touch.

Christine: You’ve mentioned marginalized communities, but we haven’t yet talked about why that’s important. Marginalized communities being more at risk for having increased levels for having experienced trauma. (Janet: yeah, of course, of course).

And like we didn’t at all, and I know why, because of time and relevance right now, but we didn’t talk at all about like the racial disparities or any of that. (Janet: right). Or even that experiencing racism as a form of trauma or, you know, so it all depends on how much we want to get into.

Janet: You know, Christine, we can talk at some point about that. I will assume, that Inclusive Designers Podcast will at some point have additional Trauma-informed Design episodes where we are really kind of also focused on some of the other work that we’re doing, including marginalized communities and the trauma of things like racism. (Christine: mm-hmm),

So it’s definitely on the agenda and we will talk about that. But for the moment, talking about the tool and keeping the tool in mind. And again, all this information will be on ‘’ for all the listeners to go and get engaged and start looking at and starting to understand Trauma-informed Design better. (Christine: mm-hmm), (Molly: yeah).

We talked about the tool, but I think for right now, talking about the future of what this tool has afforded us, and we’d start talking about what’s next. Maybe we could kind of go around the circle here, or Molly can start. Molly has her hand up. So go ahead Molly.

Molly: Okay, so where do we go next? This is a tool that we’re hoping, it’s an assessment tool, so it could be used as Janet said, for any of these spaces.

Janet: It is true. Davis- Any thoughts?

Davis: Yeah. I’m excited to, to see how the more gathering of feedback from and people using the tool can help us iterate. As designers, we want to iterate and develop more understanding of the kinds of positive impacts that will happen when these assessment design recommendations are put into practice. And they show up in the schools. What are the outcomes? We want to measure some outcomes. I’m really excited to see that part of the work unfold.

Janet: Right. And you bring up a really good point, Davis, that we do want to start talking to schools using the tool— the TiD Evaluation, K-through-12 Tool— because we want to start using that in other forms and also getting that information that speaks to us, that we can then push back out to other designers and say, this is what’s working and this is what’s working well.

And that is an important piece because as we all know, there’s still not a lot of information out there. This is all still relatively new and Trauma-informed Design Society is the leader, a global leader in fact, in this particular area. And our next steps are, we know that universities are coming up. It seemed like a natural progression that we’re now going to start working on creating tools for the universities. And so, it’s just going to really kind of mushroom from there. Christine, did you want to jump in?

Christine: Yeah. I see things all the time where people are saying, well, “that’s fine for schools,” or “that’s fine for this community or that community, but I’m doing just plain old residential design,” or “I’m just doing commercial design and anyone could be in this building. So I don’t really need Trauma-informed Design.” And I keep pointing out the prevalence of trauma in our society is such that (Janet: it’s huge). Just about everyone has probably experienced trauma in their lives, may be impacted by it.

And so why wouldn’t we do it for every design (Janet: correct), right? (Janet: yeah). Absolutely we see it in certain projects more common. You know, we see it in the human services fields. We see it in organizations that provide services to individuals. We see it, asks for it, in residential design for the unhoused. We’re starting to see it in courthouses. (Janet: yes). We’re starting to see requests for it in institutions that treat individuals, whether it be for regular medical care or for mental health. (Janet: right).

And as you and I always like to point out, the last frontier, the place the most marginalized, the place where people usually just don’t feel like they want to spend the money or that people in the community needs it, is really correctional facilities. (Janet: right). And the people where a segment of our society just wants to throw away the key. And yet we’re seeing it there, (Janet: right). It’s starting. So we need to make sure that what we’re doing is actually effective.

Janet: Right, yes Molly…

Molly: And I just want to add that just as we are all different individuals for different parts of life, and we have come together at the table to create this tool, this assessment tool. We all bring our knowledge. It’s almost like we’re one body, we’re uniting, but we all have different parts. And that’s exactly how design is. And I just go back to thinking again from my OT brain, if we think of development, the foundation, what is the foundation of any building? It starts out with the idea, the vision, and then the process of design.

And we want all voices at the table. And I feel like this tool is the beginning of really showing that we’re trying to break down barriers and silos within all the people involved in creating these spaces that support our communities. And that if we come together and we know we want things in, that’s a structure that then can dictate what and how users use it.

Janet: Davis, do you want to add anything?

Davis: I do have one more thing that I’ve been thinking about quite a bit is the use of the word design itself. Because if a person were to say be interested in what is Trauma-informed Design, and they Google searched it, they might find a whole other world of Trauma-informed Design that isn’t specifically talking about physical spatial built environments. (Janet: right).

And that world is our friend. We’re, you know, we’re neighbors with them that we’re in the same room at kind of the same table. But so those folks are doing incredible work as far as how processes are designed, and including the voices of social workers who are right here doing the lived experience work (Janet: right).

You know, this is important to us when we gather evidence as well, it’s really honoring people’s actual experiences and knowing that there’s this beautiful overlay between the different folks and groups of individuals doing this kind of work. (Janet: right).

So I don’t want anyone to feel confused if they’re like, “wait, this is Trauma-informed Design. I’m an Architect, or an Interior Designer, this is my jam.” versus “what are those folks over there doing? Writing about it and using the same phrase.” It’s, it’s compatible. (Janet: yeah). Yeah.

Janet:  I would argue that there are a lot of Architects now that are starting to use the phrase, Trauma-informed Design that do not have the framework that we use. And it is something that is a little concerning to me, but it is something that I think once we all start getting on the same page, that we will be better able to understand.

But I definitely think that there’s certain pieces where if I hear somebody talking about Trauma-informed Design and they aren’t saying some particular types of words that we know are so, so important within this conversation. And if they’re not being brought up, I know that they don’t know what they’re talking about.

Christine: Absolutely.

Davis: Yes, yes, absolutely. It is important to be really careful about what people are claiming if they don’t have an understanding of the human physiological responses to stress, for instance, (Janet: right, right). Then I might keep looking until I found a firm or a team who really understood what trauma is from all levels. Yeah, yeah.

Christine: Great point…they still need to learn. We’re hoping that the tool can help them gain a better understanding.

Janet: Right. We can usually tell when a designer doesn’t understand what Trauma-informed Design is by the language that they use, or the lack of language that they use. (Molly: yeah). And I know one of the benefits of looking at the website– at – and looking at our society and the work that we’re trying to do, they will benefit and have a clearer understanding of what Trauma-informed Design is, or as we’d like to call it, around the office, TiD. And you know, and that’s in part what the tool is about.

Christine: We hope to be a resource to them.

Janet: Right. Yeah.

Molly: And you know Janet, that’s exactly why we did this is, it’s that language, right? It’s the knowledge by creating those domains, we’re trying to help build that knowledge base and understanding of what trauma is, but also what design is. So we’re trying to bridge it. Right?

Janet: Right. Yeah. The important piece of this ultimately is, is that we want people to know that they can get information. If they have questions about Trauma-informed Design, please reach out to the Trauma-informed Design Society. You can do so at And I get requests every day for different people, for different things. So if you have any questions, just let us know.

Davis: Yes.

Janet: You can go to to go look up the tool and find out all the information that we’ve kind of provided here. So as we wrap up this episode of Inclusive Designers, is there anything else you guys want to add about the process or the tool or all the research we’ve done? Or maybe even just what do you want to talk about for the future? I’ll just kind of go around the studio. I don’t know if, Davis, you might want to start?

Davis: I am so, so grateful for all of the incredible work that the designers, the schools, and ourselves that we were able to come together in this way. It’s like I’ve mentioned before, it’s the ultimate, let’s take the indignation of the way the planet is right now and put it into an optimistic, forward facing, solution finding applied, uh, project. So I’m just delighted and appreciative every day for the work we do.

Janet: Thank you Davis… Molly?

Molly: I think I just want to, like what Davis said, just, I have this huge sense of gratitude that we find our people and we can all come together and we can all talk about this and we all get it, but it’s collectively coming together and really being able to empower each one of us and those that are different than us to maybe start to embrace another way of thinking and to blend it with theirs. (Janet: right).

I think, isn’t that the power of knowledge and learning? And we’re just bringing a tool that we collectively came together from a lot of voices, and we try to synthesize it, but it doesn’t mean it stops there. It means we do appreciate your feedback and that continues to grow this work.  So I just want to thank, thank everyone.

Janet: Right. A good point, Molly, to mention we do want your feedback. We want to hear from you. And so with that, Christine, final thoughts.

Christine: How am I supposed to follow them? They’re both so great at summing up their experience.

Janet: I know. We could just wrap it up. It’s all good. (laughs).

Christine: I come to this as a personal passion to spread a new way of interacting with one another and interacting with our environment. And I just feel like we all, each of us, have the power to improve someone’s day and then another day, and then another day and eventually their lives.

And it’s such a mind-blowing thing when you understand interactions from this perspective of understanding how trauma can impact a person’s behavior. And I just feel like if more people understood that and understood how it impacts themselves and others, we would have a much different society.

So please just don’t be afraid of the word trauma. (Janet: yeah). Don’t be afraid of the concept that we’re basing something in trauma (Janet: right), or that understanding. It’s all about healing together in relationship. (Janet: yeah).

And thank you, thank you for those people who trust us with their funds to do this great research and to find ways that we can help spread it, that simplify it and make it accessible to others. And if there’s anyone out there who’s looking for something and feels compelled to help us for do more,

Janet: (laughs) something to fund…

Christine: You have the power, as I just said…

Janet: (laughs) we’re always open to ideas…

Christine: it’s all about feeling and being empowered. You have the power to further this research.

Janet: Thank you. And thank you everyone for spending the time, both our listeners and also for the panel today; Dr. Davis Hart, Christine Cowart, Molly Pierce. It’s been an incredible opportunity to work with such smart, thoughtful, caring individuals who are designers or brilliant thinkers and researchers. And I have grown so much as a result of having worked on this particular project, and it’s something that I am extremely proud of, and I am extremely just elated to have been a part of.

And if we can just even just change one school and make some sort of impression. Of course, we like to think it would be for everybody and for every school, but at the end of the day, I think we really, I mean, I know we’ve done an incredible job and I think we’ve really kind of changed and pushed the needle forward.

And so I am forever grateful for being a part of this team. And I know, I know how hard we worked, and I think it shows. And I think that that will also help to create a better foundation for all the other work that we’re planning on doing.

So with that, I just want to let our listeners know that we will have all that information again on our website,, and that, you know, reach out to Trauma Informed Design Society at: – all one word– if you have any questions for us. With that, I think we’ll end it for the day. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us today. Bye guys.

Christine: Bye.

Davis: Bye everyone.

Molly: Bye.

(Music / Outro)

Carolyn: That was a great overview of how the TiD-Eval-k-12 Tool shaped up.

Janet: I’m so proud of my team and the hard work we put into this tool. And how it will ultimately change the way we design for the built environment for the future. I mean, I didn’t know when I said to these guys “I have an idea” that it would become this incredible award-winning tool that is just taking off and is going to be applied across many different areas in any kind of piece of built environment. It’s really kind of great.

Carolyn: So I’m now realizing that I’m not the only one you say “hey, I have an idea” to.

Janet: No, in fact I think they all get a bit nervous when I say, “I have an idea”. Christine now actually says it’s the four scariest words she hears coming out of my mouth is “I have an idea.” It usually means more work for everybody.

Carolyn: Well I’ll say, don’t stop because your “I have an idea” to me led to us starting this podcast. And we encourage others to do so too, because it’s that kind of brainstorming that leads to new advances and benefits us all.

Janet: So true, we are so very proud of the work we are doing and how well received it is by the design AND school communities. We could not be more thrilled at the outcome. Sometimes I do have a few good ideas.

Carolyn: Yes, you do. And we should mention that this tool that you and your colleagues developed is really starting to catch on. I think you may have mentioned, it’s now being explored around the world.

Janet: Yes, and we’re now looking to expand this version into studying universities, here and abroad, where we can start applying our tool to higher education. It’s really quite amazing.

We could have never imagined when I said to this incredible group of core researchers that we should apply for this ASID– American Society of Interior Designers Foundation Grant, that so many places would be interested in adapting it for their purposes in ALL of their universities, as well as using the existing tool for their own version of K-through-12 grades.

I think I can speak for everyone on this panel that it goes beyond our wildest dreams, that this tool we created will to continue to expand. We have big plans for it. Or at least I do! (laughs)

Carolyn: And when you do, we’ll get everyone back together and do an episode about that. But for now, we should probably wrap up this one, don’t you think?

Janet: I do. A big thank you to our panel to Davis, Christine, and Molly for joining us today. And ‘thanks’ to all of you as well for listening.

Carolyn: Along with all the regular places you get your podcasts— which now includes Pandora to replace the now defunct Stitcher, you can also find us on YouTube as, you guessed it again, Inclusive Designers Podcast. And of course, if you like what you hear, feel free to go to our website and hit that Patreon button, or the link to our GoFundMe page.

Janet: Yes, please do. And let us know if you have any questions or suggestions for topics you think we should be covering in upcoming shows!

Carolyn: And as our motto says: ’Stay Well…and Stay Well Informed’

As always, thank you for stopping by.

Janet: Yes, thanks again. We’ll see you next time.

(Music up and out)

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