Design + Menopause (Season 5, Episode 5a)

Menopause Cafes (Season 5, Episode 5b)
Guests: Lisa Scully; Nathalie Bonafe: Erika Eitland

(Music / Open)

Janet: In this series we will be discussing specific examples of design techniques that make a positive difference for people living with certain human conditions.

Carolyn: The more a designer understands the client and or the community the more effective and respectful the design will be.

(Music / Intro)

Janet: Welcome to Inclusive Designers Podcast, I am your host, Janet Roche…

Carolyn: and I am your moderator, Carolyn Robbins…

Janet: We have a very special episode for our listeners today. We are talking about Menopause and Design… what it is, how it affects women in the workplace, and what we as designers can do about it when creating these environments.

Carolyn: It’s an important topic that we feel needs more attention and is finally starting to be addressed. We’ve assembled a panel of experts in this field: Menopause Educator Lisa Scully; Women’s Health Advocate Doctor Nathalie Bonafe; and Doctor Erika Eitland from Perkins & Will.…

Janet:  We’ll discuss the different stages of menopause, and of course, design solutions. They also share their own personal stories in an honest and open discussion. I love that we have women from different generations, including myself. I usually do the interviewing but this time I am a part of this round table discussion…

Carolyn: it’s an incredible group of women… period.

Janet: (laughs) Hey, did you mean that as a pun?

Carolyn: oh yeah…

Janet: Oh my goodness. Well, you usually throw in a couple of puns, and just because this is a serious subject doesn’t mean there can’t be a few laughs.

Carolyn: So true. As long as it’s a part of the natural flow of the conversation?

Janet: Oh no…

Carolyn: too much?

Janet: maybe…

Carolyn: Okay, so before I add to the cycle (J: oh no), and get myself into more trouble, here is our panel discussion on ‘Menopause and Design’…

(Music 2 – Interview)

Janet: Hello and welcome to Inclusive Designers Podcast. I am your host, Janet Roche. Today we’re going to be talking a little bit about menopause and design. And we’ve got a couple of experts on here who will be talking to us about the stages of menopause and how that works, and the trials and tribulations that women go through with menopause and also within the workplace. So I’m going to dive right on in. I’m going to ask them to go around the room and introduce themselves briefly. So, Dr. Eitland, could you go first, please.

Erika: Hi, everybody, I’m Dr. Erika Eitland, and I lead the human experience research at Perkins and Will, an architectural and urban design firm. I am a public health scientist proudly, and I am the first public health scientist to be in a leadership role at a major architecture firm in the industry. So I take that with a lot of humility, and I feel so honored to be joined by all these incredible guests today.

Janet: And we’re thrilled to have you too. So then we’re going to go to Lisa Scully.

Lisa: Thanks, Janet. I’m Lisa Scully. I am a licensed menopause expert champion with Menopause Experts Group, based in the UK, but they’re part of an international company. I’m an organizational development professional as well. So I work with different organizations with regards to taking the organizations through change, processes, but particularly specializing in menopause in the workplace.

I also have another hat, that’s where I met Janet. I am a trauma-informed project manager for Wrexham University in North Wales. And we have been on a journey for the past three years and continue to be on a journey to become a trauma-informed organization.

So, changing mindsets, behaviors, processes, and driving a culture of compassion and kindness. And I am amazingly working with Janet on an amazing physical design project about the physical environment and trauma informed approach.

Janet: Great. Thank you, Lisa.

Lisa: Thanks for having me.

Janet: And next up we have Dr. Bonafe.

Nathalie: Hello Janet, thank you for having me here. Hello everyone, Erika, and Lisa. I’m Nathalie Bonafe. Generally, only my mother calls me doctor.

Janet: (laughs). Well, that’s actually a very nice thing, she’s not seeing you as six. Right. So, yeah. (laughs).

Nathalie: Yes, yes, that’s the joke. But thank you. So, yes, I actually have a PhD in biomedical science. And because I do not work for any university or any big corporations anymore, I actually go by Nathalie Bonafé. And, but that background is extremely useful in being, like Lisa, a menopause expert champion, representing here in the USA as part of this wonderful group, you know. Originally based in the UK, but it’s not now really global. (Erika: yeah). (Janet: yeah). And I love being part of that group because we grow together the awareness.

So I am a woman’s health advocate, specialized in transitions. So you can call me a coach or a doula. A woman who serves at two transitions at menopause and at end of life. That’s me.

Janet: Right, which is interesting. Until I met you, I didn’t realize there was end of life doulas, which I think are quite important. And, so, thank you for everybody for being here. It’s such an important topic.

I am a woman who is now approaching 58 and I had a surgical hysterectomy in November of 2020. To be honest with you, when I got out of surgery, I was about as happy as one could be. Well it was over, right?

And I was healthy and okay, and I was really quite ecstatic. I never had kids. I didn’t want kids. And my journey going through menopause was quite extreme. I had a lot of cervical cysts. I had heavy bleeding. I mean, it was, it was bad.

And so once that, what I figured was the journey was over, I thought ‘hot diggity’, right? Like, I could not have been more thrilled. And I know I had a lot of friends that said, “this is like going to be the worst thing you’re ever going to go through” and having the uterus taken out, like that was the defining moment. And that was it, like, your skin is never going to be the same. Your hair is never going to be the same. And all this other stuff.

They’re not wrong. However though, the thing that I really found to be true, and what started kicking off this session, was my real moments of dealing now with bits of depression that hadn’t really happened since I was a teenager and an early adult age. I’ve been a pretty happy person.

I’ve also have been dealing with a lot of anxiety, which I’ve never had in my life. And to the point where I think sometimes, I have panic attacks. And then, also there’s a lot of anger and rage. Forgot to mention that part earlier. It’s coming through. I might have always been a little quick to fire off, but like I feel like this is a little bit something else.

I was asked by a doctor recently, “did I have any thoughts about hurting myself or others?” And I thought about it for half a second and I thought, I couldn’t figure out if I wanted to cry or ask her, “describe exactly how I was supposed to hurt people.” Like, I had somewhere between this wanting to cry because I was depressed, but also this complete rage where I thought to myself, “Yeah, I might want to hurt somebody. How can I go about that?” (Lisa: chuckles).

And I wanted some sort of answers, And I just shut down, and I just said nothing. And, because I knew it was just a f fleeting moment. And so I said, “no, I’m good, you know” but it really wasn’t true. And so then I got a chance to meet Lisa on this Wrexham University project. And when she told me that she was a menopause expert and I said, “Oh, we have to talk, we have to get you on Inclusive Designers Podcast. It’s so important. We need to talk about this.”

And then I started doing a deep dive and I started to realize that, even when I asked my doctors, and I was going through perimenopause, and they told me I was just too young to be going through perimenopause. I said to myself, ‘but I’m having all these problems, like, you know, the cysts and the mood swings and all this other stuff’. “You’re too young. Don’t worry about it.”

And then from there, once I did go into menopause, and I have a great OBGYN, I really like him an awful lot. And so I said to him, “you know, now I’m in menopause, you’ve taken the uterus out, like, this is a real defining moment. I said, what can I expect?” And he goes, “well, what do you want to know?” And I thought to myself, “oh, I don’t know what I want to know. What do I, how… what?”

And so then I kind of shut down from that because then I didn’t know what to ask. And then it wasn’t until I went back and started doing more research, I realized doctors aren’t taught, at least in America, what menopause is, because we don’t know.

So his answer was technically kind of correct. So he could probably help with certain questions that I might have, but I didn’t know what questions I was supposed to ask. I didn’t know what this next step meant. I didn’t know I was going to have depression. I didn’t know I was going to have anxiety. I didn’t know I was going to have the complete fits of rage. I nearly took out the refrigerator the other day because I spilt water. I did it. I spilt water and I just started pounding on that thing. And I mean, it’s not good. so, (Lisa: chuckles), yeah.

So again, I was already going through this anyways, and then when Lisa and I had that initial conversation and I found out that there was actually like, like menopause experts out there. I was like, wait, what? And so immediately afterwards, I called up Carolyn and I said, ‘ahh, I have our next show.’ And even though we weren’t planning in doing it for this season, I said, ‘we have to do it for this season, and we have to do it now.’ Yeah.

So I’m going to let you guys jump in. I don’t know who wants to go first. Maybe we could talk about what is menopause and let’s start with that basic conversation.

Lisa: Shall I? (Janet: Yeah, go ahead, Lisa). Do you want me to start the ball rolling? (Janet: Yes). Okay, yeah. So a lot of what you said there Janet, you know, those who are listening that have experienced any of those feelings or any of those symptoms as they’re called, will completely empathize with you. Because it is true… (Janet: Nathalie is raising her hand), (Lisa: laughs). And I recognize the rage and I do recognize the anxiety because that was me, 3-years ago. I mean, I’ve always been quite a nervous energy type of person. And when I was young, I would worry about little things and mum would call me ‘Nervous Nelly.’ That was my nickname, you know, but in a very loving way, but that was fine.

And I’ve been through life events like we all have where, you know, I’ve had resilience, but I’ve always had hope, faith, and trust in myself that, you know, I’ll push through. But for me, the anxiety and the depression, now when I reflect back, and I didn’t know what on earth was happening to me.

It was during lockdown, so 2020, that lovely year, you know, in lockdown, not being able to access the normal medical services or speak to somebody. And also it being a subject that actually, although it was being started to talk about in the UK, and Mariella Fostrops’ program had been on, it wasn’t actually in full swing, the conversation. And also, I think there was a bit of denial, I mean, I was 47 at the time, or 48 nearly, uh, I don’t know why I was in denial, but nobody had ever told me.

So the anxiety part, and that’s where we’re at, I mean, I am still perimenopausal as it calls it, and that’s the first stage. So anybody who goes through a natural transition in terms of no medical or surgical intervention, it is a staged approach in menopause. And we talk about the average age being 51 in the UK and the US where actually that’s when your period stop.

And it’s only one day menopause, (Janet chuckles). Mark it in your diary, the day your period stop, because it’s done retrospectively and that’s your menopause day. But the lead up to that is known as perimenopause and that for some people can be between 10-to-15 years of changes in our transition from reproductive years to our non-reproductive years. Yeah. (Janet: yeah).

Erika: Lisa, this is the part that’s just like, this is the crazy part, right? Like when we say like, “oh, menopause, this is one day, it’s when our period stops.” But the fact that like menopause and this perimenopause part is a sixth of a woman’s life. And like, “oh, by the way, here you go, and nobody talks about that.” (Janet: no). I just have to say, that was also the wild thing. It’s like, a huge portion of every woman’s life is going to experience this. And we don’t even have basic leave. (Janet: right).

We don’t have menstruation leave. And I know, UK, you rejected a proposal for menstruation leave there. But it’s like, that got, it’s just, it’s wild. (Janet: yeah). So, not to cut you off, but as someone who’s 33 and trying to navigate this space and be like, “what is this whole thing?” The numbers are like, so stressful as someone at my stage. So, hopefully, we deal with this anxiety together in this next, you know, hour.

Nathalie: Erika, we also want to prepare you. I think we wish our mothers had told us. (Janet: yeah). But I think there’s been a lot of things in the past 20, 30-years that have kind of prevented, you know, this transmission of information. (Erika: yeah).

First, you know, some research that has contributed to a lot of confusion on whether it’s a good thing to replace some hormones for women, but that’s another conversation. (Janet: chuckle). But my point also is that, actually, menopause is a lot more than that, in my opinion.

But if you ask a doctor today, as we were discussing Janet, you know, what did you want to know from your doctor? He should have told you that actually menopause now is considered to be the day after you haven’t had your periods for one year. So you see the confusion? It’s not just because you don’t know when your last period is. Really, you know, you think you might have one in 6-months because natural menopause, it kind of slows down.

You have less eggs in the basket, so you don’t necessarily have periods every month. So it could be, you know, every month for 6-months and then you skip 1 month and then you skip 6-months and then you skipped 11-months. And then you skipped and then it comes back. (Janet: yeah). And then it skips another 12-months and that’s after 12-months that you’re pretty sure that there are no eggs in the basket. (Janet: yeah). And that they call menopause.

Janet: Mine was actually 1-year, 11-months to the day. And I was like, I’m over it. Didn’t have to have a hysterectomy. They told me I needed to. I was, again, I was a happy camper. And then ‘boof’ (Nathalie: it came back). it just came back like that. (Erika: ooh). And then they were like, you know, basically coming to get you so you can have a hysterectomy, but it was during the pandemic.

I was so floored by that. I was like, (Nathalie: you were not prepared), I wasn’t even prepared for almost 2-years. 2-years! (Lisa: um-hmm). And it seemed a little cruel. It was like 1-year and 11-months to the day.

Erika: I feel like Dr. Bonafe, you know, we have this book of like what to expect when you’re expecting. Like really, they should just rewrite it for about menopause. It’s like, what do, what do we expect? You know, when we’re waiting to find out.

Nathalie: I think they, uh, please don’t call me doctor. (laughs).

Erika: The reason I call you doctor, because I think it brings up actually another important point that I was going to bring up earlier is women don’t refer to ourselves as doctors. We diminish the knowledge and information that you have acquired (Janet: yeah). And so when we’re talking about menopause, you being doctor and having this accumulation of knowledge gives it some validity. (Janet: yeah).

That to me, I think is something that we need to own. And so often as women in this space, talking about something men simply cannot understand, the power of having doctor in front of our names I think sometimes gives us at least a little bit more of a place at a table.

We might not have the full seat, but at least we’ve, you know, been invited to be in the room and I just, it is out of like respect for the amount of work that you’ve done to get to this point. So I will call you Nathalie from the rest of this conversation. But I do think it is important to where we are in this conversation that there is this need for true research and science and care on this topic. And so, you know, I really am grateful for sort of your effort in this. And so it’s more out of respect than anything else.

Nathalie: Thank you.

Janet: That’s amazing. Thank you, Dr. Eitland for reminding us of that important fact. Let’s kind of, I also want to talk about women in the workplace with menopause. Like, this was part of the catalyst that started this all, but I also want to, let’s talk a little bit more briefly about what menopause is. Anybody have any thoughts on that?

Nathalie: Well, I thought about that, Janet. And if I may, just respond to Erika about that before I go into the medical definition. (Janet: sure, absolutely). This is for you that we’re doing that. (Erika: yeah). This is for your generation, and this is thanks to you for pushing us to do that, and there is a lot of that that we could share at another time.

Janet: It’s another show, right? (laughs).

Nathalie: It’s like, it’s because of your generation that we are speaking up.

Erika: No, and we need that support. (Janet: claps).

Nathalie: We are speaking up. You are helping us, and so we help you. (Erika: thank you.) And so it’s, it’s really a beautiful thing. So thank you. (Erika: hmm). (Janet: yeah).

For me, the way I see menopause is, yes, menopause is this point in time where a person has gone an entire year without menstruation. You know, that’s really what it is. But menopause is a midlife event for most women. And it is really gradual, and it happens in several stages. So we don’t know we are in menopause, really, until we’ve gone through the years that have led to menopause, that one day. And until we also start understanding what comes after. So there are the years that lead to menopause that are perimenopause.

And that is for some women, they’re going to navigate it and it’s not going to be a problem at all. They may have been a little bit moody. They may divorce, (Janet: chuckles). You know, they may just, you know, all these things.

But for most women, they’re going to experience at least some of the symptoms, whether they’re going to start peeing in their pants when they laugh, (Janet: chuckles), whether it’s going to be feeling bloated, not being able to regulate their body weight anymore, or their appetite, whether it’s going to be an anxiety, whether it’s going to be brain fog.

And I believe that menopause really starts in the brain. So I say in the head, but as a joke. (Lisa: laughs). And all our body has estrogen and progesterone receptors, and we are all dependent on that estrogen. It’s not just for us to make babies that we have sex hormones. (Janet: yeah). Then there is a day of menopause in that period of, you know, 1-year, 2-years, where we kind of really in that flux.

And then there is the post menopause, that lasts until we die. And that is something that, because I also do end of life, I care a lot about that other part. Because when I hear women say, ‘Oh, I’m past menopause.’ And I think, ‘Okay, have you looked at your bones? Have you looked at your blood vessels? How are you mentally? Is your weight regulated? Are you at risk of a stroke; at risk of not being strong enough to carry your activities of daily living; how is your thyroid? et cetera, et cetera.’ (Janet: …well that’s just it).

And that is why I think that, yes, we’re talking a lot more now about menopause and social media about perimenopause, but let’s also not forget the post-menopause. And it’s in that sense why I think it’s even more than 10-years in my opinion. It lasts, it could last 50 years (Lisa: chuckles), if we live until 100, okay?

Janet: Yeah. I forgot about the brain fog. That drives me nuts. Because I’m pretty organized and it’s definitely, I’d say, going into one room only to realize I’m picking up something else that I didn’t want, and then I’m carrying that around, and I’m like, wait, what happened to the other thing? And it’s this whole like kind of spider web of, just kind of confusion. Don’t get me wrong. I can still put on my pants. So I’m a happy girl, but it’s still, it can be frustrating for sure. Lisa, do you want to jump in?

Lisa: Yeah. Exactly what Nathalie just said. It is that we talk about these stages, and it might be, as of then, we’re actually ignoring the whole. The menopause, its word is, technically it’s that one day, after 12 months and one day, without a period, but that’s when you’re looking at it from a medical perspective.

But actually, menopause is a whole life transition, and that it lasts up to the day you die, as Nathalie said. So, you know, if, for example, I know for myself, I look back now and, you know, hindsight’s great, isn’t it? You know, when my perimenopause symptoms started kick in at the age of 40. And if I actually end up living until the ripe age of 80, if I’m lucky enough, then it’s 40 years, half of my life has been in this life transition. (Janet: yeah).

And I’ve gone on a journey of understanding. And I know that Dr. Erika earlier, we talked about, you know, reproduction and, you know, we start at maybe an average age for our menstruation at 11, for example. I mean, I’ve got a niece, sadly, who started hers at the age of 8. I mean, God love her. (Janet: yeah). But we get to 11, and then, you know, get to 40, and then we think it’s all, we’re getting there. No one told us, which is the problem around the history of it, and us not knowing,

And maybe previous generations not feeling comfortable in sharing and talking about it. Because, you know, we get on with things, you know, we’re stoic. We can solve the world, we’re superheroes. But we can’t really talk about things that are happening, particularly in the body and how it might be affecting our mind, or how it might be affecting us wanting to go to the toilet every two minutes, and all, you know, how it’s affecting our periods every month if we’re lucky to have them on a 28-day cycle.

So yes, it is a big chunk of our life. And most importantly, as Nathalie said, is it is with regards to the long-term health. So we’re very immediate in our looking at finding the instant answer.

So perimenopause is about maybe managing the symptoms, which because of our ovaries going into retirement. They’re not going into retirement quietly. (Janet: chuckles). They’re turning up one day and they’re boosting us with 2 ton of estrogen and we’re feeling on top of the world. (Janet: laughs). The next day or the next few weeks, they won’t turn up hardly.

And therefore, if you looked at it as an ECG, for example, you go from menstruation, which is an up and down cycle, and it looks like a perfect ECG, if you look at the hormones that are produced on a cycle. You go into perimenopause, and you’d be very worried if that was an ECG, (laughs), because you’d be thinking what on earth is happening.

And, and that’s, it’s good that people are talking about it, but trying to get beyond the symptom management is a challenge, but it is important. It’s not just for now, it’s for future protection of our health. And cardiovascular disease. As we talked about on strokes, talked about osteoporosis. There’s over 3 million people in the UK with osteoporosis diagnosed. A majority of them are women because of bone density and estrogen has disappeared. So we’re not actually, our body’s not protecting itself as it used to do.

And the mental health, the anxiety and depression we’ve already talked about as well, along with a whole host of other symptoms. It doesn’t just stop when your periods stop. Because your body still has to readjust and it’s also to do with what can we do for ourselves as well. So there’s a whole load of education, you know, before, during, and it continues. (Janet: yeah). (Erika: yup).

Janet: So, we’ve done a bit of a piece on menopause. Should we go talk about Perimenopause, or…

Erika: I kind of want to jump to the implications. I really appreciate everyone’s definition and experience, but I think, you know, what’s important to me as we talk about these life changes that women uniquely experience, it’s also, what does that mean for us? And I think when I hear ages 40, 50, I mean, that’s when you start to like also in your career, start making magic happen.

And yet when I see sort of, there was a big survey done in 2021 by Newson, you know, where they are saying 1-in-10 people are resigning because of their menopause symptoms, 18-percent taking more than two months off due to these symptoms. So this is like a considerable amount of time that is adversely affecting women.

And as we have more women in the workforce, to me, it’s something where you’ve made it over all of these hurdles only to get to this point then whereby these symptoms are severe enough that people are willing to leave the workplace. (Janet: right). And so, when we think about say the inclusive    design part of this and we think about, there’s definitely gender differences in some of these key building types that we use.

If we think about just even a K-12 school, we know 77-percent of those teachers are women. And, you know, in those younger grades, it’s even more. And so, as we think about our teacher shortage and retention, and we’re losing our female teachers and our older teachers. Well, is this a part of it?

And so how are we responding with a certain level of dignity and honesty about this? And so, going to Nathalie’s point of like, I’m going to call you Doctor, is because we need to be able to boost up these women who are in these professions that sometimes are lower paying, and aren’t able to have the efficacy and comfortability to speak open about what they’re experiencing. So we can have honest dialogue about symptoms and what does it feel like for us, but how often do we hear that on a day-to-day basis? (Janet: Right), It’s very few.

Janet: Yeah, well and Dr. Eitland, you have a really good point and I do want to get into the implications and that is the catalyst for how this whole conversation started. I just want to remind listeners that you can find all the information we’ve already put out there so far on inclusivedesigners.com, and so there’ll be a whole bunch of resources as well as everybody’s contact information.

So to Dr. Eitland’s’ point, Lisa, maybe you could talk to us a little bit about what you know to be true, and the financial implications for women that end up having to leave because the workplace is non-forgiving, non-understanding. And I mean that from the built environment all the way up to policy and management. So let it rip, that’s all I have to say. Go ahead. (laughs).

Lisa: Yeah, so I think Janet, when we were talking and I think I got on my soapbox, didn’t I, that day?

Janet: And I loved it. I loved it. (laughs).

Lisa: The ‘mini meno-rant’ as I call them, (Janet: right exactly, laughs), with regards, probably frustration, but we have got to turn that frustration to passion, haven’t we, to make that difference. And yeah, I mean, me personally, I’ve now, I was full time temporarily last year, but I’ve gone back to part time.

And I, you know, do a mixture of things to allow the flexibility. And that’s not because of my employer, who I’m employed part time with, because they’re a very good and supportive employer, but it’s because it’s a way of me being able to cope.

But that does impact us, and it does impact those women because I mean in the UK, say for example, the figures are 900-thousand women have left their jobs due to menopause symptoms, (Janet: that’s crazy), and not being able to cope with the symptoms and in the workplace. (Janet: right).

Now obviously there’d be a story and a narrative behind each one of those, but the implications when we look at it practically because it’s not just a medical situation or a well-being when it comes to our social or our psychological well-being or our physical well-being, it’s about our financial well-being as well. (Erika: wow).

So if the average age is 51 and people are struggling through this transition in life, where they find themselves having to go part time for example, or the worst-case scenario, 1-in-10 women leaving the workplace. Then you think about the loss of income in the short term or even the long term because they may never return to other work or increase their hours or go back to part time, full time. So loss of income in the first instance, on the backdrop of a cost-of-living crisis, on the backdrop of what are your responsibilities if you’re trying to bring up a family, (Janet: right), you’re trying to be their…

Janet: Sandwich, right? You’re also that sandwich position. (Nathalie: caregiver). Your parents are getting old, and your kids are still maybe not out of the house, (Lisa: yeah), or the word failure to launch, right? (Lisa: laughs, yeah). Economically it’s for the younger generation. Your children at this particular age, then, you know, you’re still taking care of them because it’s harder for them, the cost-of-living wage has gone up exponentially, whereas wages have not. So that’s a problem as well. (Lisa: most definitely). I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you, so….

Lisa: No, no, no, definitely. You’re quite right. And I love the failure to launch thing, yeah, most definitely. (Janet: chuckles). I think as well, it’s a long term, isn’t it? Because then you get to retirement and the years where you should actually be putting more and more into your savings and more and more into your pensions, so that you can enjoy retirement are suddenly impacted (Janet: right), because you’re on a less income. So actually for the rest of your life financially you can be at a bit of a loss in compared to, to others.

Now, I know for example in the UK, actually, if somebody leaves work or is struggling, the average figure is that they’re going to be 126-thousand pounds, which I think is about 160-thousand dollars, lacking in their pension pot, in their savings pot, in comparison to those who work right through. So, there’s those. And there’s also then, there’s the mental health impact of, you know, feeling like you might have failed. You know, I’ve had to give up work (Janet: right), or the psychological, so all maybe the things that the symptoms are brought on anxiety is then exacerbated and compounded by this sense of (Janet: wow), why, (Janet: failure, why me, right), yeah.

So, but the financial impact’s a real one. And there are only estimated figures that have been done, study by Royal London Insurance here over in the UK, has shown that it’s a real thing. So nearly a million women in the UK. How will that reflect in the US if they did the same study? I’m sure it’d be significant.

And then that’s our standard of living for the rest of our lives. If we don’t have partners or others to support us, or another income coming into the household, then we’ve got to be thinking about that as well. But it’s the last thing you think about. (Janet: right). If you want to go part time and you want to get out and you can’t cope, and even if you’re in a good organization, you know, it’s real.

Nathalie: May I add a little bit more to what you’re saying Lisa, from another perspective. I totally agree with everything you’ve just said, and it is just so devastating, for menopausal women are the fastest growing demographic in the workplace. (Janet: right). And that’s from that aspect.

So about 8-years ago, I reached the glass ceiling at my company. It was a good biotech company, small biotech company, was fairly supportive for what I needed, until then, 47. And then I started to demand for more. Demand more opportunities. I really wanted to help my small team, you know, work better together. I didn’t necessarily need to be at the bench and write grants. I really wanted to be in that manager team, and which didn’t really exist in the company I was in.

And I was gently said, well, Nathalie, this is all good, but I cannot provide this for you. I mean, basically, no. (Janet: chuckles). And so that’s when I said, okay, so let’s negotiate, and I negotiated my exit. And I found strengths to develop what I really wanted to do on my own, but it took me time because it was on my own. So can you imagine if I had had a manager who said, ‘Hey, Nathalie’… so 47, retrospectively, I was at the beginning of perimenopause. (Janet: right). So basically, I was already fed up with a lot of things. (Janet: chuckles).

And what it would have taken, you know, to just been able to say, okay, get a mentor. There was no mentor. I’ve never had a mentor. (Janet: no). In the 25 years from my PhD through my work experience in science, whether it was at Yale University or in the biotech world, I have never had a mentor. I’ve had one time a senior woman tell me, ‘Nathalie, what is it that you want?’ And I was about 35. What did I know about what I wanted? I had no idea, as you were saying, Erika. I have no idea of what’s coming up. I have no idea of the possibilities.

So not only did I not have that offered, but no sponsorship either. So what I see from younger women, and that’s why they are pushing us, you know, to speak louder. (Erika: yeah). I don’t speak very loud generally, just my personality, but I just want to scream now, (Janet: laughs), and I want to share everything. It’s like, get a mentor. Talk to your boss. Talk to your HR, if you have an HR.

And if what we can offer the companies now is actually to get this education, as Lisa, you know, through us or through other people, get some education in the companies about what they would lose if they lost all the women already on their way up. Or even in medium level, they would lose these women who have worked very hard at developing their skills, at making those companies very successful. (Janet: yeah).  If every company lost their women in their 40s, we’re really losing great potential here. And of course, I lost my income 6-months later. Right? So I had to find other ways to do that. So does it make sense?

Erika: Yeah, no, it makes tons of sense, and yet I think the thing that we also need to sort of pause on is just the idea that when we talk about, say, diversity and equity and inclusion, and we want to diversify our workforce. And yet when we see studies, you know, where they’re following 3-thousand women in perimenopause and menopause for decades, and they’re finding that Black and Hispanic women are going through menopause earlier than their white counterparts. They’re going to be in it for twice as long and they’re experiencing more intense, more frequent hot flashes and enduring those for more years than any other race.

So when we talk about this work, if a company is dedicated to, you know, this equity, diversity, inclusion work, then, if you have women of color in these places, you need to do more for them because these are impacting them even greater, even earlier. (Janet: right). And so therefore as we talk about these ages, again, it’s always a range, right? And I think for us if we’re going to be talking about equity, it’s important to remember that those stats are there.

And to me it’s a very humbling thing because it means that all of those other burdens that we place on women of color in the workforce then gets exacerbated. Even now when we go through, say, menopause and even recognizing that they’re not receiving certain treatments at the same rate as their white counterparts. So this is something that we really need to be mindful of that, you know, how are we supporting women across their life course just generally. (Janet: right). So I wanted to bring up that point,

Janet: It’s an excellent point.

Nathalie: This is so true. (Janet: yeah). This is so true. May I add one thing? (Janet: go ahead). Just in that regard, I am a white woman and I started talking from the very beginning about how Hispanic women— because we have a lot of Hispanic and Black women in America— are absolutely just affected even greater than most white women. (Erika: um-hmm).

So you were talking about teachers who were greatly affected because, what, 70-, 77-, 80-percent of the teachers are female?  (Erika: hmm). (Janet: Yeah). Well, look at nurses. (Janet: another group, yeah). I once, I was visiting an assisted living, and I was talking to this gentleman — older, white gentleman— leading the company. And I would say, ‘so how are your nurses and CNAs doing? They’re mostly women, yes? So have you noticed anything, you know, said, how are they doing?’ He said, ‘Oh, I did notice that at lunch break, they were all in that one room and they cranked up the AC.’

Janet: (laughs) I don’t mean to laugh, but that is just, I mean, it’s very indicative, right?

Nathalie: This was awful. (Janet: yeah!).  Yeah. How can you just ignore the fact that these ladies…

Janet: And it’s somehow, it’s a mystery, right? Like, this cannot be a mystery at that point, right?

Nathalie: I was never re-invited in.

Janet: No, but you bring up a good point. It’s a good transition because I’m keeping an eye on the time. You know, I’m very mindful of our guest’s time. We get on these great subjects, and I get it, but it is also about inclusive design. So, we’re going to start to mold it into that area.

And it brings up a great point, right? I would say that’s probably on the high part of design. I mean, because I remember, I’ve always had hot flashes, I feel like it was since I was a little girl. But when things were going really sideways, I’m up here in Vermont and I ski, and you’ll be up on the top of the mountain, like, unzipping your parka and pulling off your helmet because you’re having a hot flash. And it’s like 17-below and you don’t care. It is so incredible.

But this is also about design for women who are having their periods. I used to have bad periods. There was one company I used to work for had a couch in this storage-slash-handicapped bathroom. And it was air conditioned, like to the T, because there was nothing there but air conditioning vents. And I remember going in there and finding that respite that I desperately needed that I wasn’t finding at my desk. (Nathalie: when your clients are warm? laughs). Yeah, right. (Erika: yeah).

So can we talk a little bit about what might make the workplace a little bit better? I know that there’s some pillars that we can maybe discuss, but let’s throw out some ideas for designers to think about in order to mitigate some of these stressors for women. And again, it also goes through women who are having their periods, women who are pregnant, and perimenopause, post-menopause. So, I started with the air conditioner, so I got that one. (Erika: yeah, I mean…), go ahead, Dr. Eitland.

Erika: I kind of want to pause on this for a second before we get, like, into it, which is, as a researcher— and joined by all of you who are also researchers— I think there’s a shocking (pounds desk) lack of evidence. (Janet: yeah). Peer reviewed literature about the physical environment and the association with outcomes for women going through perimenopause, menopause. (Lisa: hmm).

And so anything that we are about to share, I think is very much like what we think makes good sense based on what we know symptoms are. And I have my list and kind of rooting around. But I, you know, as someone who’s a part of a large, major, international design firm, I went to a couple of my female mentors and asked, ‘Hey, what’s the research on this?’ And they go, ‘I really wish I know’. It would have helped me so much if I had had this information. (Janet: absolutely). So that evidence is lacking. (Lisa: hmm).

Janet: You’re absolutely right. It goes back to even that conversation I had with my doctor about him saying to me, well, what do you want to know? (Erika: mm-hmm). And you know, volleying that ball back into my court.

Because I didn’t know what I was going to try to ask. (Erika: sure). And then it wasn’t until I left and then I was like, wait a minute, they’re not being taught. (Lisa: hmm).

Erika: But I would say that this goes beyond medicine. I think this is, when we talk about inclusive design, to me, I think there’s a really important point where this is an issue of legacy, in my opinion, (Janet: right on), which is we know that architecture has been dominated by older white males.

And still 65-percent of architects are… (Janet: white men, chuckles). We know that we’re at an inflection point that gives me a lot of hope. (Janet: yes). But I would say that to me, you know, if only a quarter of licensed architects are women, and only less than 1-percent of them are Black women, then how are we actually going to meaningfully embed research and this discussion in design? (Janet: right).

And so that’s something where I really want us to, we have to acknowledge the importance of research in design. We have to acknowledge that we have impacts and implications on women going through a sixth of their life, we know it impacts workplace. (Janet: yes). These are topics that are not something that we can shy away from and yet, because of who has had the power of design, we need to remember that we need to be centering people. We need to be centering the non-male experience. And so therefore, you know, it is excellent to be talking about energy efficiency in the future of this planet, but at the same time what is that resilience? Because women offer something in those workplaces to make us more resilient and be able to adapt.

And if we are systematically creating hostile environments where they do not want to participate and would rather quit their job and their life’s work, then that’s really saying something. (Janet: yeah). So I would say from a designer’s perspective, we need to invest in research. (Janet: yup). We need to be really prioritizing what are those metrics, who are the people we are designing for? Like that is something we need to really be investing in, because otherwise, you’re just making energy efficient sculptures. (Janet: right).

I also feel, I’m an environmental exposure assessment scientist, so I bias towards things that I think are universal aspects of our built environment. And so you’re right, Janet. It’s like air conditioning, number one. But what’s interesting about this to me is, what is the controllability? I do not want us to create places that are stigmatized. I do not want us to be like, ‘oh, just use a little fan’. Because why do we need to put that on display?

If our car seats can hot and cool our butt, (chuckles), but we can’t do that in a workplace. I mean, this is like an industry wide problem where y’all making bougie chairs for people to sit on, you know, ergonomic this, but where do we actually invest in those types of things that are responding to women in this place?

And I would say this also goes back to even just the very building standards that our buildings are designed for. (Janet: yeah). So if we go to ASHRAE 55 which is a big thermal comfort standard, it’s been designed for men in 3-piece suits. (Janet: right). And so when I think about women going through menopause, here’s this thing where we haven’t thought about the temporality, the variability, the controllability. That’s not okay.

And so, as I was thinking about this question and kind of getting ready, this is the least sexy thing that I could probably share, (Janet: laughs), but I also would say, maintenance matters. (Janet: yeah). If I think about it, our facility managers in our buildings do more for our health on a given day than our primary care providers. Because if they’re making sure that our ventilation is, you know, properly maintained, we’ve changed filters, we know things around ventilation and air quality have impacts on improving our cognitive function, reducing headaches. (Janet: yeah). You know, sick building syndrome symptoms. And so when I think about all of this, it’s that why would we add additional burden to our occupants’ bodies?

And so by simply improving ventilation, we improve it for everybody, especially for our women going through menopause, because this is not a ‘like to have’ — it’s a ‘must have’. And when we’re talking about things like lighting and we know flicker glare, repetitive patterns trigger migraines, how are we ensuring that we’re actually not leading and creating environments that are exacerbating some of these conditions around headaches? So I think that’s like one aspect of it. I think you got me on a rant because now I’m all warmed up because of Lisa and Nathalie. So sorry y’all. (Janet: laughs).

Janet: it’s all good.

Nathalie: I think it’s great. I see one problem though (Erika: hmm), is that not everyone works under the same conditions. I mean look at the teachers, (Erika: right), look at the nurses, right? They don’t necessarily have the option to control the temperature because they’re not alone in those rooms.

Erika: They’re not alone in those rooms, but there is this opportunity for designers to be really thoughtful in creating spaces for it. (Nathalie: yes). When they’re with a patient, that might not be possible, but I think it really is about how do we stitch space. And what are those guiding principles?

And so to me, you know, is there a space for rest? (Janet: rest, yeah). I have heard from too many people that I care about, ‘Oh, well I would drive down the road, and go park in the Wendy’s parking lot and take a nap for a half an hour and then drive back to the office for my lunch break’. (Nathalie: I know). Where is the dignity in that? (Nathalie: yeah).

So to me, I think there’s a want in designers to really say that this is a part of our due diligence, our code of ethics, is making sure that we have at least thought about it. And is there private space to rest, sleep, be cooler if you need to. If you’re in a more of an office setting and you can be at your seat and that’s where you are, which is already a sedentary environment where you’re not moving and generating heat, how do we just make that a bit of a private moment where you get that control that you desperately need? (Nathalie: yeah).

Is it something where you can control the light levels so that it isn’t so bright, and maybe there’s glare? So I think there’s that part of it, but there’s moments, even within an environment that might be more chaotic, of, you know, where is the wayfinding? How do I have redundancy where it’s not just a single sign, but if you’re having brain fog and you’re just like, I need to space out, but like, here, it’s going to branch and this hallway is going to be confusing and unclear, (Janet: right). Especially in hospital settings. (Janet: absolutely). We can do better, you know? (Nathalie: yes).

And it’s like, where are we putting windows? Are our nurses working in spaces that have no windows, but the hallway’s got a whole bunch of windows that people pass in for maybe 5-minutes? (Janet: maybe, chuckles). So is that the most, like, beneficial way for us to serve that population? And so I think it’s just this re-centering of that experience. Because I think, they don’t have to be expensive changes in this situation, just we have to be more thoughtful. (Janet: yeah).

And I think there’s, again, where do you spend your time and invest that? We don’t have the research to say what the priority list is here, and that is also problematic. And I would say is, still we have a young population of women coming up through design, and we have a mostly male leadership within design. We have to be pushing though for these conversations. (Janet: right).

And I think it becomes everyone’s responsibility to look at the people who caretake us, whose womb we were in, that’s why we exist in the first place. And so to me, I think it’s, you know, I have hope, especially having opportunities like this, that in the next 5, 10 years, there is a true guideline (Janet: right), that is being enacted in all these different building types you’re bringing up, Nathalie. Right? Like it’s not just about workplace. (Janet: right).

Nathalie: Oh yeah, and so many more. (Erika: hmm). So 20 years ago, 30 years ago when I was younger, there was no special room for breastfeeding. (Janet: no). Okay. There was nothing. I did not have children of my own, but my girlfriends were breastfeeding in the bathroom, okay. At least pumping, not breastfeeding, but pumping. (Janet: pumping, yeah). But now, now you have those rooms that are available in a lot more facilities. (Janet: yeah). So how did this happen, and can we learn from that and just go through the process faster? (Janet: yeah).

Erika: And I think so. I think that maybe it’s like an interesting moment where we’re, at least in the US, I know we have a lot of federal dollars we’re investing in our buildings. Right now we’re working on a firehouse and most of these firehouses are 50-years old. So in this environment, female firefighters, which are few and far between, are still pumping in the bathroom stall. And then where do they dry their equipment and all of that.

So I think it’s the speeding this up, it has to be in any new building. We are doing these things. And those principals have to be there early because then the next 50-years is what we’re going to be dealing with. (Janet: right). And so I would say that even when we talk about public transit, it’s like those are things that, to me, as somebody who was pregnant and has miscarried since then, that was one of the most exhausting environments to be in. (Janet: right).

And so how do we actually start doing those things that the entire journey between our home and the places we occupy is actually as seamless and as inviting and calming as it can be. So that we are not physically exhausted, even by the moment we walk into those places. (Janet: right).

So, I want it to be faster. I don’t think it’ll be as fast as we would all hope. We needed it like 50-years ago. Since the beginning of time. (Janet: chuckles). But I do think that as we have more public health folks, as we have people like you, and as we’re vocal about it, it at least brings the attention. And the more we talk about it, we de-stigmatize it. The more we talk about it, we acknowledge that this is a lived experience that every single woman goes through for a huge part of their life.

Janet: Right. It’s such an important part and a lot of this stuff that you are bringing up, we do a lot of that with trauma informed design. That is such an important piece of all this. (Lisa: hmm), because it’s, you know, ultimately about bringing down that stress level, right? So it would try to help to mitigate headaches and you know, just maybe the overall stress.

So, but anyways. Lisa, I saw you nodding over there. (Lisa: yeah). Do you want to like jump right on in, because I, again, I’m getting a little worried about time. I want to make sure that everybody has a little bit of a moment. Maybe we’ll actually just start with you. (Lisa: chuckles). Tell us what you think and then any kind of last words you might want to pop in.

Lisa: Yeah, no, I think that that was amazing then. Sort of me reflecting back on listening to Doctor Erika and Doctor Nathalie then. You know, it’s so, so true. And it is a time thing, isn’t it? It is about us speaking up as we are now. It is about us empowering others to speak up because the voices get louder, don’t they? And that comes through education and empowerment. (Janet: right).

And very much so in terms of some of the basics that a lot of businesses and organizations and workplaces don’t have. You know, you could have your sort of bronze standard, your silver standard, your gold standard, couldn’t you? That becomes affordable, so for like the charity sector, for organizations that would do all of this if they had the money, but they don’t have the means.

And but the trauma informed was exactly what was coming to my mind and the work that we’re doing with you, Janet, on the trauma informed design piece, and the analysis that we’re doing at Wrexham University, and the tool that you develop for schools and, you know, that we’re now going to be developing this one for higher education which is both staff and students that, you know, occupy that space as is our visitors. All of those things will be about creating, but we have to put multiple lenses on, don’t we?

From menstruation to menopause, basically. (Janet: right). You know, that whole reproductive cycle, we have to bear that in mind, and it wouldn’t come under necessarily one of your standard protected characteristics, for example, in the Equalities Act, but it’s about that inclusive design.

Then we look at it through multiple lenses, menopause, and women of color, that various things, you know, we’ve got, everything we look at has got to be through these multiple lenses, but from a design perspective. There’s probably a lot more influence that can be done because it is a physically built environment, isn’t it?

We’re not talking in nuances here. We’re talking that something when it’s built or changed, whether it’s through retrofit refurbishment or new build, (Janet: right). It’s something that can, you know, be achieved and can be there right in front of you where the other work that we’re doing might feel a bit like sort of hit and miss sometimes writing a policy and then getting people to implement that policy.

So, I’m really encouraged though by that whole sort of explanation there and thoughts with regards to what we talked about then because I think all of that, the small little things we can do quite quickly at low cost. There are bigger things. It is a time thing, but let’s focus on that sort of what can we do now? What’s for the medium term? What’s for the long term?

Get more women into architecture, more women into the design. (Janet: right). And also women of, you know, various backgrounds, women of color, all of those so that everything can be represented alongside what we already do. (Janet: yeah).

Nathalie: We want women to talk to one another and to exchange regardless of their situation, their education, their skin color, etcetera. (Janet: right). And that’s what we do in some cafes, or here. Here we do this. You know, we would not have met otherwise. It’s wonderful.

Janet: Right. You know, I think it should probably be a two-part series for this particular program because there’s so much more to go into, and I think you’re right, we have a lot more to discuss. I also want to say, though, to Dr. Eitland, yes, there’s so much that needs to be explored. We all need to start talking about this. We can’t be sweeping it underneath the rug anymore. Like, enough is enough.

That also includes understanding what happens to us when we get our periods. I mean, there’s information, but I think it’s also about mothers to daughters, sharing that experience and not being ashamed of it. But we’ve got some work out there, I know, I’m going to put it on our page, so the resources that we have, we’ll put everybody’s information on: inclusivedesigners.com.

And I’ve pulled some papers and stuff like that, but to Doctor Eitland’s point, there are few and far in between. Our friends at MotionSpot had done some work around menopause. They’re about beauty and function meeting together for types of inclusive design, and so they decided to take a deep dive into this area, which I thought was pretty amazing. And so we’ll have all that information on the website. Again, just keeping mindful of the time…

Erika: I still get a last word I thought…

Janet: Yes. You both… I already had Lisa, I thought I would jump in. And so, Dr. Bonafe and Dr. Eitland, if you would please do us the favor in closing out the show.

Erika: Dr. Bonafe, hop in there.

Nathalie: Well, you know, coming to this podcast, I was not really sure how I could contribute, (Janet: clearly you have, laughs)), but at the same time what I’m seeing is— and what Dr. Eitland is also encouraging me to do— is we need to continue to speak up. (Janet: yeah). Wherever we can, based on our own personalities, based on the opportunities, wherever, we need to have more of those conversations where we can work together. Only through synergetic work that we’re going to really go a lot faster. (Erika: yeah).

And, I’m just delighted to have been invited to be there with you. I’m blown away by the energy that Dr. Eitland is bringing, and Lisa is. You know, we’re talking from the other side of the pond and I’m just very grateful that you had me come and collaborate with you. Together we are so much stronger.

Janet: Right on. Doctor Eitland….

Erika: I completely agree, and I think that’s giving me a lot of strength and energy, just like, ‘Alright, we got to keep going. What are we going to get after? Who we got to yell at?’

Janet: (laughs). You’ve got a whole bunch of post-menopausal women out here willing to yell at people. Don’t you worry about it.

Erika: Perfect! I mean, I think the last thing I want to say— and I feel a little bit embarrassed that it’s a last word and wasn’t one of the first— is I think it’s really important that we talk about this also through the language of disability inclusion. (Janet: right on). I think it’s one of these things where we know women with disabilities experience menopause at earlier ages, and yet some of these studies are from the early 2000s.

And I really, even though obviously menopause isn’t, you know, described as a disability, to me, it’s also this moment for, you know, and a good friend reminded me, this is not a dichotomy. you know, you’re not able bodied or you’re disabled, it’s a spectrum and a state that we pass into at any phase of our life.

And so to me, when I’m thinking about a topic like this, it is a very humbling experience to say, ‘what does that mean?’ you know, and how are we going to support people? And this is, especially with people who are experiencing these unique and sort of intersectional identities and we really show up for them.

You know, I, as an able-bodied person myself, and there are moments where I know I have sort of ableist tendencies, and I don’t even realize it. (Janet: you don’t even know, yeah). And so for us, when we’re having these conversations, let us kind of correct the wrongs and do things differently in the sense that who needs to be at the table, who hasn’t been at the table. (Janet: right).

And so that as we move forward, we’re not leaving anybody behind. And so I just really wanted to kind of make sure that that’s shared because I even think, you know, when we’re talking about our transgender friends, colleagues, you know, family members, to me this is something that, how are they experiencing this, even if they’re presenting differently. (Janet: right on).

And so, these are topics that really, we have an opportunity to make it a different way of having these conversations. So I really am so grateful to be with all of you today. And even though I’m kind of the young punk in the group, (Janet: laughs). I really have appreciated all of this time. So thanks so much, Janet.

Janet: Oh, you’re welcome. You brought so much to the conversation. All of you guys did. Again, I feel like this could be a 2, 3, 4-parter. We could even just work on the disability and work on all the LGBTQIA plus community. And again, I think ultimately, it’s about having— they’re not tough conversations, right? This isn’t some sort of, like, we’re trying to explain how sex works, right? Like, sex works I can see being a little, you know, it shouldn’t be, natural. However, I can see where that gets a little kind of pointed, but this is not. This is human health. This is women’s health. This is people of all different ages and races.

So, maybe we can continue to have this conversation. And I can’t thank you guys enough. I was so excited to do this today. I can’t even begin to tell you. We’ve been doing this for 5-years now and I think that this is probably one of the better episodes we’ve done. And I couldn’t have done it without you guys. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Erika: Thanks for having us.

Nathalie: Thank you and be well.

Lisa: Thank you Janet, thank you.

Nathalie: And reach out to one another.

Erika: Definitely.

Lisa: mm-hmm

Janet: Thank you.

Erika: Thank you everybody.

(Music / Outro)

Janet:  What an important discussion! We covered everything from menstruation to all the phases of menopause, and what that means for women in the community and the workplace.

Carolyn: Yes, and the economic impact for women who struggle and decide they can’t cope with an unsupportive work environment— it’s just staggering.

Janet:  I never knew and was just so floored— according to the study Lisa quoted, they reported that 900-thousand women in the UK left their jobs. That’s 1-in-10 women just leave! 1-in-10!!! And there are some adjustments we as designers can make in the built environment if we take women’s well-being into consideration during planning.

Carolyn: Along with that, we heard how important it is to diminish the stigma associated with menopause which can be done through education and empowerment. And also to create and implement menopause workplace policies aimed at supporting women during these life stages.

Janet: I do like the idea of a menopause mentor! That would have been so helpful to me.

Carolyn: Hopefully this episode will be helpful for everyone listening.

Janet: You are so right Carolyn.

Carolyn: We briefly touched upon the existence of Menopause Cafes in this discussion. We decided to focus on them in a short chat that’s posted as a separate episode.

Janet: It’s truly worth a listen. These Menopause Cafes can be a great resource. We wanted to share just what they can do, and how to find one if you or someone you know needs help or support going through these life stages.

Carolyn: Should we call these our period pieces?

Janet: Let’s not.

Carolyn:  More seriously, if you need more information on either of these episodes, you can find it on our website.

Janet: Absolutely! You’ll also find how to contact Lisa Scully, Doctor Nathalie Bonafe, and Doctor Erika Eitland, as well as links to the other things touched on during this discussion… all on our website at: Inclusive-Designers-dot-com.

Carolyn: That’s: Inclusive-Designers-dot-com…

Janet: And a big thank you to Lisa, Nathalie, and Erika! And, again, to all of you for listening.

Carolyn: Along with all the regular places you get your podcasts— such as Apple, Spotify, and Pandora— we are now on YouTube Music which replaced Google Podcasts.

You can also find us on our regular YouTube Channel. What hasn’t changed is our name – Inclusive Designers Podcast. And of course, if you like what you hear, feel free to go to our website and hit that Patreon Button, or the link to our GoFundMe Page.

Janet: Yes, please do. And let us know if you have any questions or suggestions for topics we should be covering in upcoming shows!

And as our motto says: ’Stay Well…and Stay Well Informed!’

As always, thank you for stopping by.

We’ll see you next time.

Carolyn: Yes, thanks again.

(Music up and fade out)